Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 33

Thread: How do I combat Varangian guard???

  1. #1

    Default How do I combat Varangian guard???

    So how do I combat these unstopable killing machines, Every time I go up against them I suffer massive losses and only beet them by wieght of numbers.I play with a typical catholic army

  2. #2

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    you can counter them with mounted xbows or jinetes. Or, if you can't build these units, with (pavise) arbalesters and then charge them with a good unit.

  3. #3

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    actually, I wouldn't go for ranged units since they're armour-heavy.

    Because of that reason, use armour piercing units, beefed up militia sergs work wonders on them :).
    Abandon all hope.

  4. #4
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    4,408

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Well they are no more armour heavy than say FMAA/CMAA or Chiv Sgts. Yes AP units will get a +1 attack but thats it. Difference in valor and a general's command stars can do it for you and depending on what year you are in get the best heavy inf you can buy. Or shoot them to pieces with arbs


    CBR

  5. #5

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    AP will get at least +2 attack IIRC since they are heavy armoured.
    The best is yet to come.
    ZX MiniMod: Where MTW meets AOE
    https://www.wmwiki.com/hosted/ZxMod.exe
    Now on beta 3 with playable golden horde!



  6. #6
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Make them chase you around and shoot them with missiles until they start chasing you.

    They are SNAILs. Attack them with Feudal Spearmen and attack them from behind.
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 09-01-2005 at 21:39.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  7. #7
    Guardian of the Fleet Senior Member Shahed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Leading the formation!
    Posts
    7,918

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by fester
    So how do I combat these unstopable killing machines, Every time I go up against them I suffer massive losses and only beet them by wieght of numbers.I play with a typical catholic army
    Which faction are you playing ?
    If you remember me from M:TW days add me on Steam, do mention your org name.

    http://www.steamcommunity.com/id/__shak

  8. #8
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    4,408

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarax
    AP will get at least +2 attack IIRC since they are heavy armoured.
    It depends on how much armour. Against infantry they will get the following:

    armour/bonus
    1-2/0
    3-4/+1
    5-6/+2

    Against cavarly just add +1 armour like 2-3/0 etc

    Varangian guards have armour 4 plus a shield that adds another point of armour but the shield doesnt get added to the armour for AP.


    CBR

  9. #9

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Firstly hit them with armour piercing ranged fire, also if you can use a mounted missile unit to draw them into a chase to tire them out - all the better.Then when you have to fight them hand to hand -
    Pin them with a unit which was reasonable morale and wont rout, then:
    1.then hit them from the rear with an armour piercing unit, especially if it has a high charge (best is billmen or gallowglasses etc, but woodsmen here will work ok and are very expendable)
    OR
    2.hit them with javalins if you can get them - they will get decimated.
    OR
    3.Slam your best cavalry into the rear - and then withdraw them after they hit so they dont engage in melee, then repeat (retreating a little distance so as to regain ramming speed!)

    Happy can opening!

  10. #10
    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    3,132

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    . . .They are SNAILs. . .
    not really slow, they march at 6, run at 10, charge at 11, which is the same IIRC as CMAA. Pretty normal speed for heavy infantry.

    I prefer to use cav archers on VG to deplete their numbers.

    VG start at morale 6 at V0 so high valor VG can be hard to rout and they do have good att/def stats, plus (again IIRC they get AP bonus so throwing heavy Catholci armored units at them can be painful.

    ichi
    Stay Calm, Be Alert, Think Clearly, Act Decisively

    CoH

  11. #11
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Are you sure about that?

    They always seem to lag behind my main infantry! I mean, it says so in Froggy's Guide, but they just seem slower in my stock VI.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  12. #12
    Chief Sniffer Senior Member ichi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    3,132

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    From VI_Unit_Prod (2.01)

    VarangianGuard MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

    ChivalricFootKnights MARCH_SPEED( 4 ), RUN_SPEED( 8 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 9 ),

    ChivalricManAtArms MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

    FeudalFootKnights MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

    FeudalSergeants MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

    UrbanMilitia MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

    MilitiaSergeants MARCH_SPEED( 6 ), RUN_SPEED( 10 ), CHARGE_SPEED( 11 ),

    Seems like VG are about normal for inf

    ichi
    Stay Calm, Be Alert, Think Clearly, Act Decisively

    CoH

  13. #13

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    I've never found them particularly slow. Maybe some players find them slow because of them tiring quickly because they have been given big armour upgrades (likely if built in Constantinople) and all that armour including what they started with makes them tire too quickly.
    Also because they are so awesome maybe people over-use them in a battle when they deserved to be subbed for some reinforcements?

  14. #14
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In my own little world....but it's okay, they know me there.
    Posts
    8,257

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by tigger_on_vrb
    Also because they are so awesome maybe people over-use them in a battle when they deserved to be subbed for some reinforcements?

    I think that's often the case, yes. I played a number of games as the Byz before realizing VG should really be held back in battles until the "moment of decision" has arrived. Until then, use Byzantine infantry (preferably with some armour/morale upgrades) in your first wave; then send in the Varangians to break the enemy.

    As for fighting against them, I second Cutepuppy's recommendation of using pavise arbs and/or mounted x-bows to take them out. If you don't have access to those, then use cav to repeatedly hit the VG on the flanks and rear.
    Last edited by Martok; 09-02-2005 at 06:38.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  15. #15
    aka AggonyRom Member Ghost of Rom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Fortress Aggony
    Posts
    90

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    The Byz also have many high ranking generals which can make those VG killing machines. Arbelestor bolts dont care what valor you are.

  16. #16

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR
    It depends on how much armour. Against infantry they will get the following:

    armour/bonus
    1-2/0
    3-4/+1
    5-6/+2

    Against cavarly just add +1 armour like 2-3/0 etc

    Varangian guards have armour 4 plus a shield that adds another point of armour but the shield doesnt get added to the armour for AP.


    CBR
    I thought that because the VG use a twohanded weapon (a massive axe) that they only got the shield bonus for receiving enemy fire when they are not engaged, but dont get the benefit for fighting hand to hand....ok just checked the unit guide and it says it doesnt apply hand to hand, but gives a 0.5 modifier for missile fire.
    Is that the reason that the shield is not counted for armour piercing or is the shield never counted for any unit? What about pavs?

  17. #17

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinan
    Which faction are you playing ?
    the english

  18. #18
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    4,408

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by tigger_on_vrb
    I thought that because the VG use a twohanded weapon (a massive axe) that they only got the shield bonus for receiving enemy fire when they are not engaged, but dont get the benefit for fighting hand to hand....ok just checked the unit guide and it says it doesnt apply hand to hand, but gives a 0.5 modifier for missile fire.
    Is that the reason that the shield is not counted for armour piercing or is the shield never counted for any unit? What about pavs?

    Yes Varangian Guards will not get any bonus from the shield when fighting as they use a two handed weapon. Same thing with JHI. The reason the shield has a modifier of 0.5 is because units that have armour 4 and 5 dont get full effect from their shields (they always get a 0.5 modifier while armour 6 doesnt get anything from shields at all)

    I think CA implemented it that way to ensure that the combined armour value didnt become too big. To reflect history as heavily armoured units started to drop the use of shields, they needed to diminish the shield effect so lower tech units didnt become better.

    The shield is never counted for when AP bonus is calculated. And pavs doesnt help in melee either, only against missiles.


    CBR

  19. #19

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    There's a weird thing that I have been noticing for a couple of years, might be my imagination but strangely enough I think that it must have some truth in it.
    I 've been getting the feeling that high armour infantry units receive cav charges better than lower armoured ones, and this hasn't got to do with the overall defence stats. Maybe the "mass" of a particular unit and the distance between each man in it are effecting this as well. Examples would include cmaa and fmaa, pavs and xbows as well (and I mean that altough they got the same armour rating, it is quite obvious to me that when forming a square with pavs and xbows to lessen the impact of charging or bog down an enemy cav, the pavs will perform significantly better).
    Tho my mind might be playing games with me heh
    Last edited by L'Impresario; 09-06-2005 at 12:26.
    [VDM]Alexandros
    -------------------------------------------
    DUX: a VI MP enhancement mod
    -Version 0.4 is out
    -Comments/Technical Problems are welcome here
    -New forum on upcoming DUX tourney and new site (under construction).

  20. #20
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    4,408

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Well units dont have a mass factor but deploying in deeper formation is better as less men get effected by the charge. There could be some hidden factor of how many ranks that the cavalry is facing, that might reduce cavalry pushback, but we never have tested it nor has CA ever said anything about that IIRC.


    CBR

  21. #21
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    9,651

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by fester
    the english
    Longbows might be good - you probably have 3 bribed from Wales even in the early game. Arbalests are better once you get to the the High period.

    Another thing to do is not to combat them. Try to avoid contact, focussing on killing the rest of the army - e.g. get them to chase one of your units to the edge of the map. If you can wreck the rest of their army, their morale should become low enough that they will rout when you turn and gang up on them. (Rear charges by cavalry have a particularly negative effect on morale, IIRC).

    But yes, they are formiddable fighters. I remember fighting a confused action with a big Byzantine army. We kind of blundered into each other and then I noticed it had a solitary VG warrior spearheading its charge. I threw 60 woodsman at him and the VG warrior routed them single handedly. It was funny having to get my whole army to out of the way of this one man. Must have been a real berserker!

  22. #22
    Member Member ah_dut's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    London England
    Posts
    2,292

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
    Longbows might be good - you probably have 3 bribed from Wales even in the early game. Arbalests are better once you get to the the High period.

    But yes, they are formiddable fighters. I remember fighting a confused action with a big Byzantine army. We kind of blundered into each other and then I noticed it had a solitary VG warrior spearheading its charge. I threw 60 woodsman at him and the VG warrior routed them single handedly. It was funny having to get my whole army to out of the way of this one man. Must have been a real berserker!
    I like longbows a lot as at the last resort (when they're out of arrows) they can sort of fight and also, they shoot their arrows a lot faster. They run out of arrows faster but I'm not the best player and often find that I never get to use up all of my arbalest bolts before the battle ends...

    And on the note of the VG, they are norsemen

  23. #23

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Don't VG's also have AP ?

    That'd mean they'd get a bonus vs cmaa, but not vs mil sergs :)
    Abandon all hope.

  24. #24
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    You can treat VG like JHI in the early game.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  25. #25
    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas USA
    Posts
    890

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    You can treat VG like JHI in the early game.
    I'd rather compare them to Viking Huscarles with an extra point of armor/defense - they're identical. VG don't get any anti-cav bonus, aren't as fast as JHI, and have 2 points less morale, so that comparison is less exact.
    My father's sole piece of political advice: "Son, politicians are like underwear - to keep them clean, you've got to change them often."

  26. #26
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    4,408

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir
    Don't VG's also have AP ?

    That'd mean they'd get a bonus vs cmaa, but not vs mil sergs :)
    They will get a bonus v mil sgts as they have armour 3.


    CBR

  27. #27
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer57
    I'd rather compare them to Viking Huscarles with an extra point of armor/defense - they're identical. VG don't get any anti-cav bonus, aren't as fast as JHI, and have 2 points less morale, so that comparison is less exact.
    Well, there aren't exactly any units that can get any closer to JHI than VGs in Early, unless you count high valour Militia Sergents.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  28. #28
    Member Member Geezer57's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Wichita, Kansas USA
    Posts
    890

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    Well, there aren't exactly any units that can get any closer to JHI than VGs in Early, unless you count high valour Militia Sergents.
    I don't want to seem like I'm trying to nitpick you, but Huscarles are only available in Early, unless you mod the game, so they're an option if not playing as Byz (or even if you are ). VG start in Early and can continue on into High, while JHI can't be built except in High or Late. All three are uber units, I welcome any of them in my armies.

    But the closest match (stat-wise and unit type) is between VG and Huscarles. They're identical if you bump the Huscarle armor up by one point. If faced with either in an opposing army, I'd use the same tactics. JHI are a different beast - not only are they faster, their morale is better. And they have that lovely bonus vs. cavalry, so the old "heavy cav up the bum" approach isn't as attractive against them - they bite back!

    JHI are arguably the premier infantry unit in the game, but their build requirements are so high that most Turkish players don't see them until far into a campaign. Both VG and JHI are specific to a particular faction, but anyone can build Huscarles if they hold the Scandinavian provinces, so they're more likely to be available to players. In my current Turkish campaign, I'm no where near fielding JHI, but am busy pumping out Huscarles from Denmark and Sweden as fast as I can! Too bad it's getting close to the High period...
    My father's sole piece of political advice: "Son, politicians are like underwear - to keep them clean, you've got to change them often."

  29. #29
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    ゞ( ゚Д゚)ゞ
    Posts
    5,974

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Well, VG are fairly good against cavalry. They can't melt units like a candle burning at both ends, but they are still one of the best equivalents of early JHI. I don't think you can really compare JHI to anything, but VG in early do come close to its power.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  30. #30

    Default Re: How do I combat Varangian guard???

    Well, they get substantial bonus against heavy cav thanks to the AP, it would be foolish to leave cav doing a prolonged melee against them.
    The best is yet to come.
    ZX MiniMod: Where MTW meets AOE
    https://www.wmwiki.com/hosted/ZxMod.exe
    Now on beta 3 with playable golden horde!



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO