Re: Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings
A Gaelic faction in this time period would be interesting, to say the least. I'm surprised Ranika hasn't shown to banter all things Irish with you, but that isn't to say he won't.
I always loved the single-province factions in MTW and, quite honestly, I find the late period of any game (with many provinces, I mean) boring.
What kind of Goidilic troops will be available for recruitment? May I suggest that they also get a special ship unit? They were quite reknown for their piracy.
Re: Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings
Hi NeonGod. The faction won't be strictly Goidelic, the period is more Laginian. But, to be honest, there wasn't much cultural difference between them.Originally Posted by NeonGod
What sort of units do you suggest? The only original unit I have thought about, so far, is some kind of "bata" or stick warband, perhaps like the Gaulish foresters. I am open to suggestions really.
Ah, yes. I understand what you mean. There isn't really a background for this with these two 'factions'. I'll probably keep it predominantly to vanilla-style recruitment, although I was considering adding pirates as a coastal resource in a limited number provinces, for Cretan recruitment.
I think the main reservation I have about increasing the island provinces is the changes it would mean to strategy. I want the strategic emphasis to be on managing a mainland invasion from a single island province, supported by one city and one port.
Any change to the domestic starting arrangement will eventually make the mainland invasion easier. Yes, the start may be more difficult. But once the island enemies have been overcome, the campaign will become significantly easier and begin to match the pace of ordinary vanilla campaigns like the Britons.
Three cities (and three ports) supporting a mainland invasion just doesn't appeal to me as much as one struggling province seeking a mainland foothold.The best proof will be in the playtesting later. We'll see.
Re: Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings
Are not the tribes of Leinster still Goidils?
Well, Europa Barbarorum has already presented the public with a hammer-wielding, armour-bashing unit, but that would be, I think, something to include if the goal was to be as detailed as possible. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Goidilic military in this period, but I'm quite confident that javelin-throwing infantry (not skirmishers )were commonplace. Of course, my pirate suggestion still stands.
Last edited by GoreBag; 09-05-2005 at 00:53.
Re: Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings
If we use O'Rahilly's Historical Model, then the Goidels did not permeate the island until around 100 BC. This view is not universally accepted but, to be honest, the iron age history of Ireland is an academic nightmare, comprising broad conjectures interspersed with myth.
You're right about the use of javelins, of course. Otherwise, I haven't completed sufficient research to begin compiling unit lists, so I can't say. If you have any more ideas, though, I'd love to hear them. Making the unit lists as original and novel as possible is a worthy pursuit.
Re: Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings
Pirates are a good suggestion for a unit, as well as a kind of 'boat' unit; perhaps 'hide anywhere' pirate/raiders to represent lighter raiding parties. Also, the 100 BC hypothesis is not very popular, except in terms of when they became the dominate culture on all scales in the island (that is, when both the lower and upper class was Goidilic). However, an Ibero-Celtic aristocracy most likely controlled much of the island for quite a period (at least two centuries prior based on burials and tombs, though the northwest {modern Connacht} seems to have been in the hands of either earlier invaders, or natives; hard to tell, though based on certain Celtic legends, it implies, if we remove the 'mythologized' parts that this region was something of a 'reservation'/vassal at times, and at other times indepedent and an enemy of the Goidilic population; however, invaders were in the island as early as the 500s BC, with Gallic-type Celts inhabitting much of modern Leinster, and mixing with Iberian demi-Celts around 400-350 BC, and Brigante-Britons who inhabitted portions of the eastern part of the island already, forming the earliest Goidilic culture, though they probably only made up the majority of the upper classes/professional warrior class, with natives making up levy troops). Some notes though that can help;
Levies were generally drawn from pre-Iberian/Celtic natives and lower Goidilic populations. Having maybe a native unit or two (archers I'd recommend, as the Irish Gaels in later periods often claimed that archery in combat {though sport and hunt was alright} was not befitting a high class man, and probably recruited natives to do archery originally, leading to this mentality; in latter periods this was a bad detriment as archery supplanted slingers {the preferred Gaelic missile troop}, and Irish archers were generally just hunters levied together), as well as low-class Goidilic levies (probably spear-skirmishers) might be appropriate. They'd be dressed in thigh-length shirts with trews (tight trousers) and leather shoes (they'd not be shirtless).
Higher-class soldiers (that is, the year-round professionals) would wear, as has been discussed with Neongod (we had quite a conversation over at Age of Vikings and Fanatics about Gaelic clothing) a long shirt; aristocracy would wear robes. Cloaks were common; shoulder cloaks for the lowest soldiers (like spearmen, but above militia spearmen), with progressively longer cloaks for the higher class soldiers (with full-length cloaks on chiefs and kings, in addition to robes). They would've worn boots or leather shoes. Chariots were employed sometimes. Cavalry in this period was almost exclusively light cavalry, and any armor employed was most likely overlapping metal scales, padding, bronze chest plates, or leather vests/coats, though apparently they also sometimes imported linothorax from Carthage (this I actually learned working with EB, it's amazing what different historians can find out from eachother that you'd not notice if you stay only in your field). Chain armor may have been imported from Gaul, but I'd stick to metal scales for the absolute heaviest armor available.
Some peculiarities; hammers show up in early Goidilic art, and sometimes remains include them. It's been surmised that this was a devotion to the Dagda, a kind of religious fanaticism (which did seem to carry over into the Christian era; Christian Rastriagha in Munster and Connaght often fought with hammers according to a few sources, notably the nun Goirimidh's writings on the army of Munster, which is sadly overlooked by most historians in favor of more famous writings, which almost always happened long after the events, rather than contemporary authors, largely due to the difficulty of early Gaelic, and field officers carried hammers as well for some time). Maces were also employed a bit later (this period...maybe, it seems they'd have followed suit with hammers, though a hammer was a more practical weapon/tool I suppose), and according to brief 'manuals' (more like pamphlets, really), they were intended to smash shields before spearmen came up from behind and exploited the broken shields of the enemy (such pamphlets show up post-Christianization, of course, but the peoples of Ireland changed very little from this period on; changes emerged, but they were mostly internal, like Munster declaring any non-slave 'aristocracy' in some cases, and phasing out trews except as day-to-day wear, whereas the rest of Ireland/the early Scots were still employing them as a differentiation between levies and professionals on the field). Naked warriors show up occassionally in parts of western Ireland; either a holdover from Celtic invaders or native warriors (I'd assume the former rather than the latter; Ireland is always depicted as 'Celtic', but this title is erroneous in its Gaelic infancy; the strength of Iberian and native culture is apparent in both clothing and arms employed, as well as language and art; it's generally far more Galaecian/Hallstatter than it is Gallic or Brythonic, and some traits don't show up in any of those cultures so seem to be of native origin); this would be an exception to a lack of shirtless warriors, but, well, they lack any clothing; bite me, exceptions. Leather caps, imported iron helmets, or indigenous bronze helmets may be employed as helmets for more well-off soldiers; very well off soldiers and champions used crested helmets with fluting in them (it allowed one to reverberate any screams or shouts, to make them sound more fearsome; Cu Chullain, in the Tain, is said to have such a helmet, and remains of such helmets have been found in Munster).
Weapons, by commonality, would've probably been slings, spears, or axes (also points to a predominance of Iberian or native influence over Gallic or Brythonic; niether of them were still employing axes at this point, but Goidils/Gaels used them as the main weapon of most infantry for centuries). Swords were somewhat rare, though not unused; however, they were generally of short Hallstatt-style (leaf-shaped blades). Longswords were very rare; perhaps on generals or an elite unit. Almost every type of infantry would've employed throwing spears; militias would've used 'darts' (and some infantry may have too; darts show up in legends as a fairly well respected weapon, so it's unlikely they were a 'levy only' weapon). Darts are not like playing darts; they're scaled down javelins (about 2/3-1/2 size of a normal javelin), and appropriate for skirmishing in Ireland and Britain. Slings were a very well respected weapon; so much, in fact, that the Fianna were supposed to have employed them as one of their main weapons (in addition to spears, swords, and axes; if you're unaware, the Fianna were the guardians of the high king in Gaelic legend, and they're not necessarily baseless; real warrior elites did exist in Ireland well into the middle ages). The Fianna did exist in some respect around the early Christian period (they participated in a few pagan revolts, on both sides, and early Christian Irish do write about them be executed or absorbed into the elite soldiers of sub-kingdoms, usually given favoritism and placed in high positions; that is, assuming they sided with the Christians), so they likely existed for at least a short while before hand. Not necessarily good enough to make them faction bodyguards, but basing a bodyguard on them with a sling and capable in melee combat may not be a bad idea (and the name is fairly generic, it's always translated as something more elaborate than it was; 'Fianna Eireann' was essentially 'Freemen of Ireland', implying they weren't bound to any of the petty kingdoms, and obeyed the high king himself; a method of enforcing the high kingship {subsequently, the desolution of such a group around the early Christian era may have lent itself to the anarchic inter-kingdom conditions of the dark ages; Niall of the Nine Hostages, the first king we know concretely of existence, invaded Roman-Britain with the Picts, with quite a force; he clearly had an extent of actual control over Ireland; further, he managed to give the Picts quite an amount of arms and the like, so he apparently had quite a bit of wealth, comparatively, and most likely controlled most, if not all of the island, and thus was a true high king, not only in title but in practice}).
Also, 'bata' is a Saxon-influenced word. The appropriate early word would be 'scoiata' ('fight-club'; or 'fighter's club'). These would be inappropriate for soldiers, but 'peasants' (militia) would appropriately carry such a weapon. Gaels fought with spears overhand (this was called 'fighting in the ancient style'). There, Neongod. I wouldn't have responded if you hadn't mentioned, and now look. Unnecessarily long tirade.
Last edited by Ranika; 09-05-2005 at 07:40.
Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.
Re: Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings
Ah, right on time. "Speak o' the devil", they say.
I would have expected nothing less.
Re: Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings
I think I'll take that as a compliment, if I may.
Ní dheachaigh fial ariamh go hIfreann.
Re: Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings
Wow, thank you for that excellent, informative contribution Ranika.
I won't dissect it all at length with you right now, but I'll certainly use your outline towards further research. Yes, I realise that the 'bata' would not have been an appropriate term, but I was not aware of an accurate one for iron age Irish clubs.However, I think the main reason I was considering this kind of unit was to try and incorporate some idealistic Irish flavour into the faction.
On this basis, I might cause the peasants of Hibernian stock to be an upgraded version of those elsewhere, given their apparent tradition of cudgel fighting for sport (at least in my romantic version
Thanks again. I'll need to take some time to digest the rest and consider how it might convert into game units.
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