The Great War

**Comrade Alexeo** · 09-12-2005, 23:22

Originally Posted by Comrade Alexeo

I would but unfortunately I cannot UV map and skin modify my models. So I need to find someone.

This is a double post, I know.

ATTENTION: I HAVE 3 EXTREMELY COOL, TOP-SECRET MODELS THAT NEED TO BE INSERTED INTO ROME TOTAL WAR (5 if you count the machine guns).

I REALLY REALLY need someone who can bone a model, add skin modifiers, etc. - basically, I can give them the model and they can get it ingame.

This person needs to be able to use either .lwo files or 3DS Max 7 to do this because tha's what I have.

Please please please contact me if you are able to help me. I am sure that once these are in, and people see that there are actually models ingame, they'll be much more inclined to help me out.

My AIM is alexeo99 and my MSN is jrg112327@earthlink.net

Thank you

**Comrade Alexeo** · 09-17-2005, 01:43

FIRST INGAME UNIT*! SORTA*!

French Cuirassier

(based off this image [top far right] https://img310.imageshack.us/img310/4237/10000835fs.jpg )
(another French cuirassier, with a different type of plume https://img397.imageshack.us/img397/...rassier9sp.jpg )

It was one of the tragedies of the First World War that cavalry were pitted against machine guns.

The warrior culture of mounted horseman, which had persisted, despite technical advances and debatable battlefield effect, for hundreds of years, finally came to an end in the First World War. Unsuited to the rough battlefields of shell holes, trenches, and barbed wire - besides being fired upon by artillery, bolt-action rifles, and machine guns - cavalry, still the prestigious arm of many military and present in large wings, did little in the First World War.

It was obvious that cavalry were obsolete, or at least it should have been; amazingly, the amount of cavalry in some armies actually increased in the war, on the expectation that once breakthrough was finally achieved, they could have effect in the open country beyond no-man's land.

In TGW, cavalry will be much like, say, skirmishers are in RTW - occasionally useful, but usually pointless. They will be prestigious units with high cost and a good attack - but extremely low defence (as low as possible basically). Coupled with the fact that machine guns not only scare them, but have a bonus against them, sending cavalry to battle will mean sending them to their deaths - which will come as a shock to those of you who have figured that the most cost-effective way to win vanilla RTW is to build vast formations of cavalry, smash them into the enemy with one massive charge and kill the enemy general, chase down stragglers, lather, rinse, repeat.

*NOTE THAT THIS UNIT IS STILL VERY MUCH A WIP. FURTHER CHANGES WILL REQUIRE MODELING SKILLS WHICH I DO NOT CURRENTLY HAVE. CHANGES WILL, HOWEVER, COME, SO DON'T JUST REPLY TO POINT OUT "He doesn't have a plume!" "Teh animation is wrong!" BECAUSE THAT'S OBVIOUS. THANK YOU.

(Hopefully) coming soon - the next trailer, featuring top-secret early combat footage and more!

**Bwian** · 09-17-2005, 08:06

In actual fact, the tactical use of cavalry in WW1 was very different from that. They were no longer 'breakthrough' units, but were expected to exploit an infantry breakthrough of the front lines. Once the Infantry battered through the defences, the cavalry could move deep into the enemies rear echelons, disrupt communications and supplies and prevent any form of counter attack building.

You really need to find some way of making cavalry work in that manner, and ensure that the AI uses them correctly. Otherwise, the human player would have a huge advantage in single player. This is one major issue for major unit changes like this.

**Divinus Arma** · 09-17-2005, 09:15

Comrade Alexio, I think this is a great idea. I knew this would work, but there are many difficulties to overcome.

Before I list the bad, let me list some good;

There are two ways to represent modern combat using the total war engine. The first is to drastically shrink unit size to the fire team or individual level. A maximum of 20 units, using modern weaponry, could be used so long as the battlefield were altered enough to make this fun. Just having these guys on a flat landscape would bore everyone to tears. Now, what you could do is implement single man sized units for specific duties, say machine gunners and sharpshooters, while also having units to represent squad, platoon, or company size line infantry.

Quasi-Good news. There are hidden files (according to Jerome of CA) that CA was working on to allow units to occupy buildings. Whether these can be implemented is, as of yet, still unkown.

I saw your site about a week ago. YSomeone mentioned using the cantabrian circle with a modified battlefield coordinate to place them high in the air. The problem, as Jerome confirms, is that the ground units cannot distinguish them as being in flight. Thus, ground unit will attack them at ground level and run into them, etc. The alternative is using towers and altering their passibility and coloration to make them clear and ...uhm...passible.

For me, it appears that your greatest challenge lies in the recreation of the battlefield. As you know, the era was dominated by trench warfare. You will have to be able to represent this both on the campaign map and the battlefield map. The campaign map might not be so difficult. It may be as simple as altering the appearance of forts. So, telling a general to create a fort would be equivalent to entrenchment of his unit. The problem here lies most with battlefield trench direction. Forts are non-directional. So even if you could alter a battlefield to represent a trench in lieu of a fort (which is possible but EXTREMELY difficult), you could not assign it a direction. It may face north, South, East, West, who knows? The only alternative to this would be to have preestablished trenches. Essentially you would have to alter the battlefield map and create permenanet trenches, one facing in each direction. Again though, you have the problem of an army entering the map from an odd direction.... Bottom line: Trenches will be your hardest thing to overcome.

All the rest are clearly possible. Tanks: Sure. Airplanes: Well, they didn't become a big deal until WW2 anyway. Maybe they could be an auto resolve only army like ships, who knows? Machine guns: yep. Period uniforms: of course. Battlefield urban environments: of course. Artillery: yes again.

This may be harder then you realize, but I wish you the very best of success. I would download it if it were any good.

BTW, your models are fine. I think you should work out the hard stuff first before you invest too much effort.

**Comrade Alexeo** · 09-17-2005, 15:25

Originally Posted by Bwian

In actual fact, the tactical use of cavalry in WW1 was very different from that. They were no longer 'breakthrough' units, but were expected to exploit an infantry breakthrough of the front lines. Once the Infantry battered through the defences, the cavalry could move deep into the enemies rear echelons, disrupt communications and supplies and prevent any form of counter attack building.

You really need to find some way of making cavalry work in that manner, and ensure that the AI uses them correctly. Otherwise, the human player would have a huge advantage in single player. This is one major issue for major unit changes like this.

Um... that's what I said bwian. Re-read it.

And Divinus - thanks for your comments. I know this is going to be pretty... no, obscenely, hard, but I have faith.

Many people have asked about "squad tactics" and so forth. I think I should detail more what I plan to do:

-The "Marian reforms" will be used to present "old" and "new" soldiers. For example, for the Germans, there will be the Soldat (front-line), Landswehr (reserve), and Landsturm (reserve reserve), and they will have, for example, the classic "spiky helmet" we all know and laugh at. After the German "reforms," the soldiers (I might just make them "Neu Soldat" and "Reservist," not sure if 3 or 2 is best) will have the feldgrau and deeper bucket helmet that we all know from the Second World War but which actually appeared in the First.
-These reforms will take place sometime in 1916ish.
-Soldiers BEFORE will have as their default formation the square, and so they will march in big blocks. That's stupid and historically inaccurate, right? Well, the point is that it IS historically accurate, and it IS stupid - marching in masses towards machine guns and artillery is pretty stupid if you ask me - but that's how it really was! Often they'd march with bands a-playing, flags unfurled, occasionally kicking soccer balls...
-Soldiers AFTER will have the "mob" formation standard instead, so they'll be less vulnerable to shellfire and machine gun bursts. Combined with the fact that most people desynchronize their animations (I'd LOVE to know if there was a way I could make the "old" soldiers be synchronized but the "new" soldiers not be, but I doubt that's possible) this should hopefully help portray the illusion of more "squad-like" tactics (since I doubt I can get soldiers to kneel, lay prone, etc., separately).

Now, I could conceivably do something with the dog's logic so that there's two different "formations" in one "group," but then soldiers would get resurrected - so, as of yet, the only unit I'm planning to do that for is with the "old" Russian soldiers. The ones who permanently die get rifles, but the rest are unarmed. Historically, they'd be able to actually pick up the rifle's of their fallen comrades, but that won't be happening anytime soon in RTW - but it'll still reasonably portray Russia's early severe problems with equipping their men, while also showing their "mass" abilities (because as long as one unit survives, half the unit does too).

Since it's probable that trenches will be made permanent features, that does bring into question about how you enter the map etc.

Call me ambitious, but my goal is for the player to, hopefully, never really find that out. If all goes well, assaults will be enormously difficult - just like they really were. Cavalry are of course useless. This leaves you to concentrate on - surprise - infantry and artillery. Artillery is very powerful but not that accurate, and will be difficult to use on the assault because field guns will be knocked out by the other guy's artillery, which, being stationary, can fire at will against the moving attacker. Meanwhile, infantry are also being blasted apart while on the march, while machine guns are hosing them down and defending infantry are firing too...

Even if you COULD break through the enemy trench, you'll still have to come after the soldiers in the rest of the trench. And therein lies your problem - you need to conduct assaults all across the trench to avoid being outflanked and caught in the middle of the enemy line without having defeated all of the enemy, but if you do that, you'll also have to dilute your strength. A strong breakthrough at one point is just that - one point. Smart players will learn that keeping a reserve - possibly just some more infantry, possibly armored cars, possibly even cavalry - behind the main trench line will allow you to stall the enemy if he breaks through, at which point he'll be close to routing anyway.

I'm not sure if it's possible to dynamically change the battlemaps of a campaign. If it IS, then gradually shell holes and dense barbed-wire could be added to the maps.
(Another thing to point out is that once you're actually past the trenches, the landscape isn't that devastated, so major map-making work won't be required).

Strategically, too, you'll have problems. There's nowhere to outflank the trenches except by sea or through Switzerland.

The British and German fleets, despite the former being much larger than the latter, cancel each other out because the risk is, if you don't knock the enemy out, he'll knock YOU out, and HE can get past the trench line.

In the Mediterranean, the German, Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman fleets aren't very strong - or if they are, they've nowhere to go. They could try landing in the south of France, but France has her own fleet, and Italy has a fleet - albeit a weak one - as well. They could land in Italy, but that'd serve no purpose because Italy sucks anyway. They could try to attack Russia, but then you'd have an isolated army in the middle of nowhere.

Conversely, the Allies have little luck as well. France can't expose her "belly." Italy hardly even counts as an ally. Greece is surrounded by enemies.

The only place to go is to through a neutral, like Switzerland or Spain. While the faction list is still being sorted out, attacking a neutral country (which will likely be represented by "Rebels" so they don't get any ideas; some countries like Greece will probabaly be represented however) may be more trouble than it's worth. Anyone who's fought in Spain in RTW knows how annoyingly hard it is to conquer relative to its actual importance, and Switzerland would be similar. By the time you conquered them, the enemy could already have moved reserves anyway.

And speaking of reserves - where are they? The Western Front is easily held but can't be depleted because you risk a breakthrough by an all-out attack. Britain and France aren't big enough to simultaneously hold the WF and send a second force elsewhere of any size. Germany would be big enough but she has to duke it out with Russia because Austria-Hungary is pathetic. Everybody else isn't important enough.

Campaign objectives, therefore, won't be "conquer the entire map" but just "conquer France" or even "survive."

I hope I've shed some light :)

**Divinus Arma** · 09-18-2005, 17:44

I think you need to read the book "Infantry in Battle". (The Infantry Journal Incorporated. Richmond: Garrett and Massie, 1939) It is centered on WWI tactics and examples.

Without a massive Europa-Barbarorum-style overhaul, you will end up with a bunch of guys in WWI gear fighting in a quasi-RTW-IG manner.

The bottom line is this: Unless you do it correctly, your product will be lame. I am a realist, not a defeatist. You have to look at the mechanics first. new army in "mob" formation? That's lame. They need trenches and squad tactics.

Read the book. Then see if this can be done.

Any goal can be accomplished vision, commitment, and ability. It may be the ability that is lacking, and that is no fault of your own.

Good luck.