role of sex in history...

[VAE VICTUS]

just wondering if anyone would care to comment on the role of sex in history.(it plays a big part in life,so it plays a big albeit unseen part in history)
ex. it is said that prior to the battle of san jacinto (texas war of independence)
that santa anna was "entertained" by native texican woman (as they were called at that time) and that this was one reason for his defeat,that and that his men were on siesta,probly half drunk and half asleep,and in my opinion he was at BEST a mediocre commander.

also what of marrying off princesses for alliances and such;helen of troy(yes its legend,but isnt all legend based on some kind of fact usually?)
does anyone know any other examples?

[LeftEyeNine]

Our history books used to say that Baltaci Mehmet Pasha's army had caged up whole Russian army somehow. But unexpectedly, after "negotiating" with Tsarina Katerina, he left the Russians untouched at all.

And it is a well-known rumor that it was a "hot" negotiation..

Anyway, this has been declined by historians several times. Who knows ?...

[Gregoshi]

Let's keep this discussion as clean as possible.

[Kagemusha]

First of all,there wouldnt be any history wiyhout sex.the first generation of Homo Sapiens would have died of extinction if they wouldnt have had sex.
At early history sex was a reason for many conflicts because tribes noticed that they would need different genetics in order not to degenerate.If marriages couldnt be arranged peacefully,it was a standard custom to rob the prides from another tribe.In Finland we still have a custom of robbing the pride in weddings.The grooms friends kidnap playfully the pride in somepoint of the wedding celebration and the groom has to collect money from the wedding gests in order to get her back.

[Rosacrux redux]

Anybody thinking about the rather close resemblance of big, pointy sticks (and ther offspring) with ...ahem... other (sometimes ...not so big) sticks? Well, what else is war if not violent penetration (=rape) ???

Sex is in the basis of everything, so it's role in history is of the outmost importance.

[i]Greg, is that clean enough?[/b]

[Kongamato]

As far as the whole phallic-designed weapons thing goes, I can't think of a more effective way of killing someone, which is why I think they are so popular. Focused kinetic energy really hurts people.

[Gregoshi]

Symbolism in warfare and "sex makes the world go 'round" aside, let's keep the discussion focused on the intent and spirit of VAE VICTUS' question.

[Kagemusha]

Okay Gregoshi sama.As a historical figure i can point out the last queen of Egypt.Cleopatra She wrapped around his fingers both Julius Caesar and Marcus Antonius.And i dont think it was only her political wisdom that helped her to accomplish that.

[Brutus]

Atilla the Hun died of a blood nose while enjoying his latest aquired wife.

[LeftEyeNine]

That is claimed to be a Roman assasination, isn't it ?

[VAE VICTUS]

and lets not forget the rape of the sabines. dont know if it actually happened though. rape of lucretia also.

[Kralizec]

The last Etruscan king of Rome, Tarquinus Superbus had a rather unpleasant son called Tarquinus Sextus, who fell in love with Lucretia- the wife of an officer. Sextus arranged that Sextus was sent away on duty, and then tried to seduce Lucretia. Failing that, he raped her. Lucretia, after telling what happened, committed suicide out of shame. Brutus (supposedly the ancestor of the guy who betrayed Caeasar) led a popular revolt that expelt Tarquinus.

The story of Verginia is similar. Because the Plebs wanted a written code of law to garantue justice, a body called the Decemviri (10 men) was put together wich replaced the consuls. When it was replaced by a different set of men, these chose not to resign eventually and abused their powers like tyrants.
Appius Claudius, one of the decemviri, supposedly had an aid called Marcus Claudius claim the beautiful Verginia as his slave. At the fake trial (judged by Appius Claudius, off course) Verginia was indeed labeled as his slave. When she appeared to be in hands reach, Verginias father stabbed her, saying that this was the only way he could grant her freedom.
Another popular revolt broke out, and the decemviri were forced to resign.

It should be mentioned though, that the historical accuracy of both is questionable, especially of the latter. Propably Livy just wanted to illustrate what a horrorible tyrant Appius Claudius was.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Interesting question.

In legend, the answer would seem to be quite a lot -- especially if it was the many variations on "He took my woman, now he must die" themes.

I have my doubts.


Do you really think that 50,000 Greeks went after Troy because one skirt went East? It makes for good poetry, but don't you think Troy's having a strangle on trade might have had a bit more to do with it (even the "it was actually Britain and it was about tin" theory holds up better).

And the famous Cleopatra, who was probably about 14 when she supposedly swept the dictator or Rome off his feet and his Lieutenant after him. Both of these fellows were noted "swordsmen" in their day and hardly lacked for company. Caeser, according to some, had twice as many options as most. Yet we are to assume both men to have become smitten and wrecked their careers over her. Do you think that maybe, just maybe, it might have been the fact that she was a Ptolemy with the "link" to the locals and that Nilus produced more grain than anywhere else (and that part of being a good dictator was keeping the bread cheap in Roma)? She had her own dynastic infighting and probably didn't mind an alliance with the most powerful military in the world.

The "Rape of the Sabine women" though famed, probably has about a gajillion counterparts. If the city resisted and forced you to take it by assault, the common soldiers took that as license to "Rape, pillage, and burn" -- we even have a stock phrase for it! It was considered the "norm" of warfare right through the Napoleonic era -- and a number of armies continued the tradition even after that.

It is likely that isolated fueds or "brush wars" may have erupted as a result of some sex crime, and it was certainly used as a tool of distraction, but I think comparatively few events have hinged upon it -- aside from getting us the next generation's worth of history in the first place.

Seamus

[VAE VICTUS]

even if such events never happened,they have still impacted history.therefore sex has had an impact at least in the way we look at history.

[Longshanks]

and lets not forget the rape of the sabines. dont know if it actually happened though. rape of lucretia also.

Speaking of rape...Boudicca's rebellion against Rome may have been triggered by her daughters being raped by Roman soldiers.

Another element of Roman history that sex may have had an impact on...

Marcus Porcius Cato's inability to compromise, particularly in all matters related to Julius Caesar made Civil War (and Caesar's ultimate dictatorship) inevitable.

Cato may have been partly motivated in his stubborn opposition to Caesar by the fact that his half-sister Servilia was Caesar's mistress for many years. Caesar is also rumored to have slept with the wives of many of his political opponents, including Cato's.

[GoreBag]

I remember reading a citation where a Roman empress (who was not identified) spoke to a Gaul (I believe) about the "typical" promiscuity of her people. The Gaul, who was a woman of considerable importance, replied, "We court with the finest men in the open, but you allow yourself to be debauched in secret." The empress' reply wasn't recorded...

[edyzmedieval]

In Finland we still have a custom of robbing the pride in weddings.The grooms friends kidnap playfully the pride in somepoint of the wedding celebration and the groom has to collect money from the wedding gests in order to get her back.

We also have it here in Romania.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Well, I wouldn't be here if there wasn't any sex in history...nor would you, or you or *points at you* YOU

[Shaka_Khan]

Sex gave birth to all the assassinators, inventors, generals, and leaders in history.