Tolkien's Fantasy World Too True To be Fantasy ?

[LeftEyeNine]

There are many rumors J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle Earth being inspired by the real world. It is something impossible for a writer not to be effected by his/her reality but even every race is assigned to a real one by some people. Although I heard that Tolkien had denied the reality basis of his fantasy world, there are certain things you easily can relate to the reality.

Any info's / comments ?

[Aenlic]

Tolkien did indeed deny that his writings were in any way allegorical. He did admit that his experiences in war had a great effect on his stories, though. Many people have tried to claim some correspondence between the Lord of the Rings and WWII, particularly an imagined similarity between Hitler and Sauron. This is, of course, patently absurd. Tolkien began writing the stories during WWI, while serving in the trenches, including being sent to the horrors of the Somme. If any war affected the stories, it would be that war. Most of the basic foundations for his stories were laid long before WWII and the rise to power of Hitler.

[QwertyMIDX]

There is some serious Racism in there though, that's all real world inspiration.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If you're looking for prime inspiration search the celtic lore of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Manx, and some of England's western stretches.

Influenced by the great conflicts of the early 20th, probably, though magic rings, famous swords, dragons and trolls are classical more than fascist. The Hobbits' collective isolationism and its inability to protect them probably reflects his own experience more than any other.

And don't discount his buddies down at the pub -- a fairly bright group despite all that English ancestry.

Seamus

[Steppe Merc]

Riders of Rohan are essentially Vikings on horses (Rus, I suppose). I know Tolkein was a proffesors of Norse and Saxon mytholgy and language.

Gondorians are a bit like late Romans, with really only one city, and only their past to keep them going.

[econ21]

There's a sort of affection for a fading rural England in some of the world - Saruman is ripping up trees to fuel his ironworks while the Shire could be any idealised English Home County.

It also seemed to me - not least from watching the films - was that the core message of the Lord of the Rings was the need to bravely fight evil. That message would seem very much of its time for an Englishman living in the shadow of two world wars.

[AntiochusIII]

Viewing from a pessimistic point of view, Tolkien's work can be recognize as racism, as well. With the "evils" in the "wild and unexplored lands of the East" or the Haradrim representing...others...

However, it is pointless, even stupid, to accuse Tolkien of racism, considering the age he lived in.

One would think Elendil's two kingdoms (Arnor and Gondor) are representatives of the two Roman empires.

Shire itself represents Tolkien's ideal "rural Britain." Carefree, ignorant, happy, fertile, but with hidden strength.

The lost Numenor is recognized by many (including Tolkien himself) as an Atlantis of Middle Earth.

[Aenlic]

Tolkien was an admitted anti-semite. It doesn't get talked about much because his works sort of overshadow his negative side. No one is perfect.

His love for and feeling of loss for the English countryside is real. He talked about it quite a bit in his later letters. He grew up in the West Midlands, in a little village just south of Birmingham. So he was exposed to the rampant industrial growth of Birmingham, as well as the rural life of the small villages and farms there. I think that juxtaposition, combined with the horrors of WWI (nearly every friend he had from school died in WWI) created the scene in his mind that became the backdrop of his written world. He composed most of what was later published as the "Lost Tales" while recovering from trench fever for the last two years of the war.

[PanzerJaeger]

Tolkien was an admitted anti-semite. It doesn't get talked about much because his works sort of overshadow his negative side. No one is perfect.

Hehe, its amazing what can be forgiven when you like the finished product.

I never understood the bid deal about the Lord of the Rings books. Pretty standard "quest" novels.. nothing particularly great about any of them in my opinion. Its a motif thats been done countless times. I think Star Wars did it much better. (And the movies were just stupid..)

[Byzantine Prince]

Fiction is always based on some fact. Even fantasy fiction.

I hate Star Wars. LOTR rewls!

[Soulforged]

If i'm correct the hobbits were based on reality. The inspiration came from the tipical englishman of the period, at least that's what he said.

[Reverend Joe]

PanzerJaeger- The distinctive factor in Lord of the Rings is the mythos and educated history behind them, not to mention excellent writing (except for the 5th book; it gets kinda thick around then.) Tolkien created an entire history behind the books, albeit inadvertantly (it's a long story)- and it is this entire backdrop that really makes the books stand out against the other quest/fantasy books of the time.

i never read the Star Wars books- and I had no motivation to, not after seeing the first 3 movies (meaning the early ones, not the ones that just came out. I hate having to explain that.)

[Ironside]

There are many rumors J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle Earth being inspired by the real world. It is something impossible for a writer not to be effected by his/her reality but even every race is assigned to a real one by some people. Although I heard that Tolkien had denied the reality basis of his fantasy world, there are certain things you easily can relate to the reality.

Any info's / comments ?

Many of the stories in Silmarillon were found in the Lost Tales, were it was quite obvoius that the intent was that it had happened in England for a long time ago.

[Del Arroyo]

The Tolkien stories, IMO are most definitely allegorical.

The books are all about a struggle against the industrial revolution. It is clear to me from reading his books that he feels the dehumanizing elements of industrialization, and the low value of human life in "ant-like eastern races" represent the epitome of evil. That if we didn't wake up and fight back, crookedly-learned wisemen and their imported Chinese drones would turn the world into a smoking, filthy, industrial hell.

(It is also evident that while he in LOTR good triumphs, Tolkien believed the evils of industrialism to be damned near and probably totally unstoppable. Note the seductive evil power of the One Ring. If you eschew industrialism's power, you are powerless to fight it, but if you fight industrialism with industrialism, you will merely be consumed and assimilated into the black night of hell to come. In LOTR the only way to stop it was through trust in one small, pure-hearted Hobbit sent on an illogical and improbable mission-- but in the Real World there are no Cracks of Doom.)

At least that's my take on his message. Not saying I really agree with it, by the way. But if you consider his experiences, he had a valid viewpoint, and LOTR is a good piece of fiction, regardless.

DA

P.S.: As far as literary merit, I actually liked The Hobbit a bit better. LOTR is too dense, and has too much background, if we're talking straight literature. Though obviously it's those aspects that give it its niche.

[ichi]

Some concepts are universal to the human experience. The same issues of valor, domination, heroism, and the struggle between 'good' and 'evil' found in the trilogy are part of world history.

One of the best works in all of literature, BTW.

ichi

[Ja'chyra]

As much as I hate to say it I have to agree with PJ here.

While the books are good they are by no means the best, I know he must have put a lot of effort into them but so have many other fantasy writers, like George RR Martin, Steven Erikson and Robert Jordan, and some of them have come up with much more intricate, absorbing worlds in my opinion.

Also trying to draw parallels with the real world is like pissing in the wind, pointless and the odds are you'll just make a mess , no-one knows or will ever know as he's dead. It's a pet peave of mine when you see people trying to give deeper meanings to things, like dirty bed sheets that some call art, and all they do is end up sounding pompous, slightly foolish and very annoying, not that any of you are like that

[LeftEyeNine]

Well, LOTR fiction was the first one that was a seriously fantasy story, wasn't it ?

The common imaginary races like Elves, Orcs and so on are brought to life by Tolkien, aren't they ?

That's what I hear from the fans of Tolkien. And if that's true, at least he deserves credit for creation that lasts for a long time and usually used.

The font style of the Elvish (there were two languages, I do not remember the particular name right now) is said to be inspired by the Arabic. And in newspapers, about a month ago or so, some British journalists (I think 3 of them) were answering questions from the readers. And some claimed that the Orc race was inspired by Turks.
Strange that we usually get "roasted" now we are claimed by some to be tasting worse than rubber.. Orc flesh? Yuck !

[LeftEyeNine]

Not the world's best author, perhaps. But the Wright Brothers were certainly not the world's best pilots, either.

That summarizes Tolkien's fame. Excellent..

[Spetulhu]

As Panzer said, the books are pretty sub-par compared to some of today's greater fantasy works. Wheel of Time, for example.

Jordan needs to get a real editor instead of going on and on and on and on...

[Ja'chyra]

Jordan needs to get a real editor instead of going on and on and on and on...

Very true, what we on now, 11 books and counting? I don't think he's got a clue about where he's going, I'm sure it was originally supposed to be 10 books with number nine billed as the penultimate. I'm seriously considering giving up on his series

[Ser Clegane]

I'm seriously considering giving up on his series

I did so after number 8 when it became increasingly clear to me that the story lost any pace - and as Jordan's writing style is far from stellar, there was not much left to enjoy after the plot stalled...

[nokhor]

one of my issues with the conventions of fantasy is that in every major work, the freedom-loving chivalric people with knights are always in the west, always bounded by a great western ocean, the 'boundless hordes' and darker skinned peoples are always in the east/south, the viking-esque peoples are always in the north. the steppe peoples are always in the east etc. which i just find silly.

[Adrian II]

one of my issues with the conventions of fantasy is that in every major work, the freedom-loving chivalric people with knights are always in the west, always bounded by a great western ocean, the 'boundless hordes' and darker skinned peoples are always in the east/south, the viking-esque peoples are always in the north. the steppe peoples are always in the east etc. which i just find silly.

That is why I find nearly all fantasy so utterly boring. It isn't fantasy at all, just a watered-down version of some mediocre writer's idea of reality. Every dwarf, every robot, every elf is another testimony to the author's lack of talent and imagination.

Y'all may hang me now.

[Azi Tohak]

Maybe he's not as exciting as some modern writers, but he was the first to create a fantasy world. I think GC is right about his skills.

I've read his letter about how he despises allegory, and I must say I'm thrilled by it I hate allegory too, and sure, while he had to have taken some of his own experiences and placed them in the book (WWI is too important to ignore), they aren't supposed to be 'true'. Their books and enjoy them (or hate them, whatever) as such.

Azi

[Stefan the Berserker]

Riders of Rohan are essentially Vikings on horses (Rus, I suppose). I know Tolkein was a proffesors of Norse and Saxon mytholgy and language.

Gondorians are a bit like late Romans, with really only one city, and only their past to keep them going.

Mostly. Tolkien was proffesor of Norse mytholgy and Linguistics.

The official claim of Tolkien was that he admired the celtic and germanic mythology and wanted to create an "English mythology" since his people, in his viewpoint, would not obtain an own mythology.

However they historically shared the norse mythology (Saxons) , during the both worldwars the English developed to denie their roots on the Continent since this would create a connection with their Enemy (Germans).

He wanted to create a mostly realistic mythology, so he mixed Elements of:

Celtic Mythology
Norse/Germanic Mythology
Dark Age European History
The old Testament/ The holy Bible

Which were sensefully factors which could have influenced he grew of an "English mythology".

So you will find an equivalent of Noah, with Elendil sailing with fellows to middlearth when Numenor sinks. Aswell as the Hamites-Haradrim, Odin-Gandalf or Fomorii-Orks.

However who is interessted in this should prefer the Book, since the Films are good but they change the shape of many aspects.

[Steppe Merc]

The books are great, and I love em. I like the newer series like Wheel of Time and GRR Martin's series, whatever it's called. But I guess it's sort of like the Beatles, as good as other bands, the Beatles were the first, so they're the best.
The films are good, and while they do change stuff, it still seems the same world and story.

And WOT is a bit too long. It needs less of those scheming Aes Sedai, and more Borderlanders (preferably Saladean) versus Trollocs.
But I'm gonna read them all. Though Jordan could take hints from Martin when it comes to getting to the point.

edit: Stefan, thanks for correcting me, I knew it was Norse, but I wasn't sure what else he studied.

[English assassin]

If you ask me Tolkien is a grossly sub-par reworking of bits of Norse myth and that's it. Poems in Elvish, give me a break.

The Hobbits are obviously English though. Evidence:

(1) they like beer and specifically pubs (OK, they could be Scottish or Irish as well on that basis. But no one else)

(2) they like books full of things they already know, set out fair and square, with no contradictions. That rules out the Celts who are a notoriously brainy if highly strung bunch, therefore by a process of elimination Hobbits are English.

Quite why Tolkien felt the country needed a mythology in which it was depicted as irritating little midgets I do not know, in the same way I have some difficulty in seeing LOTR as an improvement on Beowulf. Obviously the world of fantasy must remain closed to me...

[ShadesPanther]

There was a website I read that was full of the mythology and all kinds of things regarding middle Earth. I'll see if I can find it

[doc_bean]

I really don't understand how people can say Jordan is a better writer than Tolkien, all his male and all his female characters are the same, his pacing is terrible and most of the book(s) are filled with silly detours. What happened at the end of book 3 was known to happen by the end of book 2 ! Every person in power is female and all males seem to be afraid of women (yeah, realistic for a medieval setting).

Still the worst fantasy I ever read (I swear I read better videogame fanfiction than that) was the first book in the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind, it has to be read to be believed, but I won't recommend doing that to anyone.

The best fantasy book, imho, is Magician by Feist. It manages to be fun and entertaining throughout, and has very likable characters. His other work isn't at the same level, but this quite fun to read.

I do agree with AdrianII though, the fantasy genre is formulatic (sp?) and, taken as a whole, rather boring and predictable. I consider it pulp instead of literature. But pulp can be entertaining when you're in the right mood.

[AntiochusIII]

But Tolkien is the pioneer of the genre, is he not? I believe in games, books, and all sorts of fantasy stuff in the world carries resemblance to Tolkien's Middle Earth. Tolkien's elves influenced a lot of elven species. Even Morrowind's elves are similar to his. So it may be that the fantasy genre copies his works too many times that the original (more-or-less) becomes unoriginal in modern readers' minds.

At least the dragons are purely evil here and the "knights who fought the dragons" are dwarven armed forces, and that Rohan knights were by no means Arthurian knights (as in literature), but are just heavy "Sarmatian" horsemen with devastating charges. Oh, and no Medieval castles, either, but rather Gondorian strongholds.