3rd of October closing in - Hotline for Turkey

[LeftEyeNine]

OK Taffy, then it's been a total of 100 years - pretty time to get used to the name, isn't it ?

[Sjakihata]

I'm not terribly well-versed on the workings of the EU, but is not Turkey a very poor country in comparison to most Western European nations? And would it not drag down the EU economy to bring them in?


Or would it work the other way, and bring Turkey's economy up?

In short term , yes, it would bring down the average EU economy.

In the long term, it would bring the average EU economy up. Why? Because when Turkey converts to a richer and more wealthy lifestyle, their demands will increase - creating more jobs through europe, since they, as a country, consume more.
So, in a monetary sense, it's an investment.

Of course, to many money isnt an important factor. they (christian, right wing, concervatives) want europe to remain a christian project and keep islam outside.

[Sjakihata]

Seems to me like it would be more of a boon then.

What about immigration? If LeftEyeNine is right, would not such a flood of immigrants into neighboring European countires be a cause for concern? We're all too familiar with the problem of floods of immigrants here in the US.

Certain right wing individuals, with their minds focused only on doom and destruction, have always been crying: "The wolf is coming!" no wolf never came though. They said the same thing with Spain/portugal, Poland and various other (at that time) less developed country. The wave of immigrants just never happened, why will it happen now then, with Turkey? Because they are moslems? give me a break.
It never occured to them, that people would want to stay and help build new foundations for their country, instead of fleeing to where the immediate wealth is.
Granted, some immigrants have come, but people from Denmark emmigrate as well. In fact, if no immigrants come to denmark withing the next 25-30 years, our wellfare state, as we know it, is doomed. Too many elderly, not enough manpower. Immigration will save europe, not doom it.

[A.Saturnus]

Frankly, she doesn't meet the criteria. She's not in Europe (yes, I know a tiny bit is) and she is way too poor. It took time to digest the Iberians and Greeks, now we have to digest Eastern Europe, we just aren't going to be ready any time soon for 80m million turks with a GDP per head of $7,400 (compare the UK at c.$30,000)

You are mistaken. Firstly, it´s not 80 million but 70 million. At least now. Secondly, the number of 7400 dollar is irrelevant. It is not - and it is dismaying that this has to be repeated so often in discussions about that - as if anyone would plan to grant Turkey EU membership next week! The date we are discussing about is 2020. If you consider the growth in Turkey of 8.2% per year that makes a GDP of 24,000 dollars when Turkey enters the EU. That´s more than Greece has now. This is speculative, but any argument that Turkey will not meet economic requirements by 2020 are equally speculative.

That Turkey will get taken over by islamists is unlikely. Many Turks are very loyal to the ideas of Ataturk. The current government is as fundamentalist as common European christ-democrats.

BTW, the EU has promised Turkey that it will have a chance to become a member for more than 30 years now. If we rule out the possibility now, that´s simply deceit.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

LEN:
firstly, it has not reached the century mark yet.
secondly, I am being anal.







Thirdly, yes, plenty of time for people to get used to it.
(although, to be fair, it's not like many English speakers go out of their way to use the correct official name for a city in a non-English speaking country, or even the correct official name of the country e.g. not many people call Greece "the Hellenic Republic" in English).

[Papewaio]

The date we are discussing about is 2020. If you consider the growth in Turkey of 8.2% per year that makes a GDP of 24,000 dollars when Turkey enters the EU. That´s more than Greece has now.

What will be the growth for the rest of the EU?

I think Turkey should join... just not at the cost of a secular EU.

[AntiochusIII]

Well, I guess the fact that a lot of people call Istanbul as Constantinople is because the latter sounds waaaay cooler.

No, seriously, it gives a romantic historical impression of an ancient magnificence of the city.

However, if you visit the city today, you will call it Istanbul, because it is now Istanbul through and through (the problem is - how can we define what is Istanbul in a literary sense? Leave this to the Turks to figure it out) and no longer Constantinople.

[Petrus]

I want to note here that europe is not what was called a "christian club ", it is a secular institution and that’s what makes it’s strength and it’s ability to group so many countries with so many different traditions.

The comparison between Christian democrat parties and Islamic parties is also wrong as both of those kind of parties are conservators but where Christian democrat can only promote laws based on Christian beliefs, Islamic ones have a written ideology that can only be interpreted by religious and that is very strongly discriminative toward one half of the population – women – and totally incompatible with European democratic standards.

As noted before, the Turkish military institution is the main element that prevents secularism to shatter in this country and such a scheme is not admissible in Europe.

Moreover, islam with it’s written and inalterable laws – sharia – and it’s religious judges – imams – is something that can challenge the legal institutions. This does not mean turkey will ever be a Taliban-like state but given the fact that Turkey will be one of the most populated countries and a political heavy weight in Europe when it will join, it is a major problem that must be solved before adhesion.

Those different points and the poor example of evolution of countries that joined when they where not ready to do so such as Greece make me think that turkey shall join Europe but that it has to evolve greatly before to do so and that speed is an enemy both of Turkish interest and of Europe general interest.

[English assassin]

@ A Saturnus, you did notice that I was in favour of continuing Turkey's accession I hope? I realise full membership is some 15 years off at best but I would be happy to make a bet Turkey will still be relatively very poor compared to the EU average at that time. However the gradual introduction of poorer countries into the EU is a well established process and one that is overall a good thing for us all as GC notes.

I am not remotely persuaded by the "we need immigration to replace the population" argument, but that is another matter. (My views may well be coloured by living in the south east of England which is rather overcrowded already.) I think it is generally understood that freedom of movement would have to be phased in, not because we don't like turks but to avoid destabalising Turkey. Though as this has not been too much of a problem for Iberia or Eastern Europe I suspect in fact it would not be too much of a problem for Turkey either.

The broader argument is if we do not join with a country which in many ways it makes good sense to join, and which is already part of the west in significant ways (NATO, mainly) simply because they are Muslim, we are making it clear that the west is indeed a Christian (or post Christian) club. We have to decide if we want to increase or decrease the fault line between the Muslim world and the sensible christian secularists. (And what is more build a strong secular base to oppose the possibility of a fundamentalist USA.) As Turkey represents a fine example of muslim secularism, I would say she makes quite a promising candidate.

LEN why are you opposed to entry? It seems a no brainer for Turkey?

[LeftEyeNine]

@English Assassin,

I am opposed to enter. Because it is just a "lazy" way not to try to stand on your own feet with such a dynamic and wise population, and instead prefer joining some community by giving incentives that look essential from outside which are damaging in the long run for us.

I still don't get why northern cyprus Turks have to be left alone with their own fate. I still don't get how dare we can give incentives to Kurds who are already independent with their deeds in the country, politically financially and culturally, who are the leading factor to social corruption in Turkey. That 13 million Kurdish population the foreigners talk about is consisted of "rabbits reproducing every single day". The uncontrolled and rapid population growth is a result of poverty, the over-masculine culture (women have absolutely no power within Kurdish culture), and the strategy implemented over Kurds years ago by PKK to claim the forename "serious minority".

It's at least a "smiley news", seeing Germany towards PKK's deeds, called by Europeans democratic actions for years. But you know, you have to taste it before you can figure what it's all about. Germany saves its own secularity in the long run by closing off Ozgur Politika newspaper and investigation of several residencies that PKK may have roots in. (Although I sense some "vote hunt" by Schröder who is in favor of Turks..Whatever he has already done a good job for Germans..)

It's impossible to leave MGK's control power over government since we are always close to the globe's "recent" topic : terrorism. Governments, intentionally or unintentionally, may ignore the threats growing before they boom out. At least, under current conditions, weakening military discipline over government for democrasizing is not rational..

When we are in EU, we will be a desperate target for AQ and its followers. I am doubtful if we are wanted in a way that we actually get involved the fight against AQ. It does not mean we are appreciating it right now, though. I explained what Islam is about many times before.

Economically, FDI's (foreign direct investment) will seriously damage the SME's (small medium sized enterprises) here. Turkish private sector is not strong enough to handle that flock which is caused by incentives and tax-giveups given to foreign investors and the cheap labor here.

I am a conservative one, you see. However, I am very very pleased to get reaction from you about Turkey. Whatever I told above as causes that prevent me from being an "EU fan" means no offense. If, say, as the Danish think, it is a Christian club, we have to stay out. That's not isolation or drawing thicker lines between religions, or another topic. It's all about staying away from inner conflicts within borders of EU in the future.

[Edex]

We joined EU on the May, last year. And now we can see, that there are many plusses and also a lot of minuses in it. Farmers now get some support from EU funds, but also price of fuel has risen about 80% in a year. And so on and so on. Lot of people moves to work black jobs in UK and other western Europe countries and for us thats not that bad, as they are not the cleverest part in most samples, so its more problem for countries where they go, not for us. So EU here has given oportunities to those who are educated and clever enough to use them, but it also made poorer those who allready had hard times.

[Duke Malcolm]

Turkey is a growing part of the European economy and the European community of states and brings with it a cultural inheritance that will benefit us all. Britain is America Minor. It doesn't even have a small triangle anywhere except in Ireland, which it should leave in the same way Turkey should leave Cyprus.

Britain is a group of islands off the coast of Europe, it is on the European continental shelf. The majority of Turkey, however, is on the continent of Asia, as is the country's capital. It is a non-European country with a small triangle of land in this continent. Whether the addition of a new culture would benefit us all is a matter of opinion. And the matter of Northern Ireland is a different matter entirely, and is best not discussed in a thread about Turkey

[Adrian II]

It is a non-European country with a small triangle of land in this continent.

One should not petition one's principium, old chap!


That last smiley is 'Fritounetteke'...

[Brenus]

I want Turkey in Europe. First, she (or he, I don’t know) was the Sick Man of Europe that the answer for those who deny Turkey is in Europe…
Correct me if I am wrong, but Israel is competing in all European events, sports, music etc? And Israel even hasn’t one small part of territory in Europe (geographically speaking).
Turkey is actually the only country in the region with a secular political regime, and if Germany and other countries can have Christian Democratic Party, why Turkey couldn’t have Muslim Democratic Party.
In term of economy, and I am not an expert, but Turkey is far more dynamic than Rumania (just example) with strong links with the others Turkish-speaking countries around… and perhaps Turkey will be more grateful than Poland which just run in the US arms with EU money…

[A.Saturnus]

Britain is a group of islands off the coast of Europe, it is on the European continental shelf. The majority of Turkey, however, is on the continent of Asia, as is the country's capital. It is a non-European country with a small triangle of land in this continent. Whether the addition of a new culture would benefit us all is a matter of opinion. And the matter of Northern Ireland is a different matter entirely, and is best not discussed in a thread about Turkey

On that little triangle live about 15 million people. By the same reasoning Denmark is also not part of Europe, in fact. Greenland is officially part of Denmark and not part of any continent.
But why should that matter anyway? It seems unreasonable to let a political, economical and historical matter like that be decided by which continental shelf the majority of the country is on. Sorry, I can´t help but to think that this argument is just an alibi for other unspoken reasons against Turkey.

[Kagemusha]

I have nothing against Turkey to be a part of EU in the future.But EU is now in so sad state of affairs,that we shouldnt take any more members before EU can even get a popular support of its existance among member nations population.

[Papewaio]

It seems unreasonable to let a political, economical and historical matter like that be decided by which continental shelf the majority of the country is on.

So can British Commonwealth Nations join then? Can the USA join?

Why or why not?

Too many asians?

[Adrian II]

On that little triangle live about 15 million people. By the same reasoning Denmark is also not part of Europe, in fact. Greenland is officially part of Denmark and not part of any continent.

And what was that about the Falklands being British?...

Wrong shelf, gentlemen!

[Papewaio]

Howabout all the countries on the interface between two continental shelves?

Do they have to divide themselves up based on the geological definitons?

Should we also look at cratons?

[LeftEyeNine]

According to German Marshall Funds' very recent poll casted in 9 EU countries, the percentage who favor Turkey's EU membership descended from 30 to 22. A percentage of 42 is unsure about the matter.

[Byzantine Prince]

Why should Turks, an asiatic people's, join the EU, a european organization. I can understand Israel going into the EU, because they are mostly white from mixing with europeans, but turks are heavily mixed anatolians and steppe people. Neither of which have ever been considered european.

[LeftEyeNine]

Well, I'm so comfortable with being asiatic and anatolian. This claim of yours is absolutely true.

But I have for the first time seen that Israelis - who come from Hami-Sami race - being called mostly European. They are relatives of Arabs antropologically, shall you know..

[Byzantine Prince]

I am aware that they are semites, but none of the look like it. A lot of Israelis are blonde and red headed, and also most of them look pure white. That indicates a mostly european background. Think about it, they arived in France in the medival times . They mixed in a millions times since then.

So yeah Israel could enter the EU.

[Petrus]

I wasn't aware EU membership was based on race.

Well, it is not and this is the main problem of the persons who want to put a veto on Turkey's adhesion.

Seeing the differences that exist between the different european peoples, it is absurd as Greece, for example, is much closer to Turkey on an ethnical basis than it is from Belgium.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

personally, I'm concerned that the EU's human rights laws will possibly destabilize Turkey and will allow the influence of the scary brand of Islam to flourish.

If you want an example of a once non-scary country that became a hotbed of that nasty type of Islam then you can look at Pakistan. I know Pakistan is not in the EU blahblahblah but it did go down that fundamentalist path quite swiftly. A couple of decades of free reign for the scaries and you may find Turkey a completely different place in 2020.

[Ja'chyra]

I'm more concerned with this statement

Yesterday 13:18
Edex
We joined EU on the May, last year. And now we can see, that there are many plusses and also a lot of minuses in it. Farmers now get some support from EU funds, but also price of fuel has risen about 80% in a year. And so on and so on. Lot of people moves to work black jobs in UK and other western Europe countries and for us thats not that bad, as they are not the cleverest part in most samples, so its more problem for countries where they go, not for us. So EU here has given oportunities to those who are educated and clever enough to use them, but it also made poorer those who allready had hard times.

We don't want your dross my friend, we've got enough of our own, mind you most of ours don't even want to work do you want them in return?

[Redleg]

I wasn't aware EU membership was based on race. And here I thought Racism in the civilized world was most rampant in the US.

I believe you would be incorrect. Check out Byzantine Prince's comments - it smacks of racism far worse then what is in the United States, its just better hidden in polite language.

Racism exists in all parts of the world - Europe is rife with racism. You can read about it almost daily.

Round-up of racial violence
By IRR News Team
8 September 2005, 1:00pm
The Institute of Race Relations' research over the nine weeks since the London bombings shows that racially motivated attacks are a daily occurrence and many appear, through the use of offensive language, to be a consequence of the bombings. Though much of the harassment has been 'low-level', the effects of such sustained and targeted attacks should not be underestimated.
7 September 2005: A 39-year-old man driving along the A43 in Northampton is racially abused and then sprayed with water through his open car window by White men in another car. (BBC News 8.9.05)
5 September 2005:Daily Mirror reports that Asian soldier, Americk Hayer, 17, is left with his eyeball hanging out after allegedly being attacked by another soldier while on army exercises in Cumbria. He also alleges that that same soldier has racially abused him in the past. (Daily Mirror 5.9.05)
5 September 2005: A 23-year-old man from Formby is arrested on suspicion of murdering Black student Anthony Walker in Liverpool; he is bailed the next day. (BBC News 6.9.05)
5 September 2005: Northern Ireland Newsletter reports that that the Assistant Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) has commented that there is a 'clear link' between Loyalist paramilitaries and racist attacks in the area. (Northern Ireland Newsletter 5.9.05)
3 September 2005: A mother and her two children are left terrified after a 20-strong mob surround their Caerphilly home, throw rocks and shout racist abuse. One brick smashes a window and narrowly misses 2-year-old Tyler Ford. His mother, Angharad Ford, 21, confronts the mob and has clumps of her hair pulled out. Police arrive and disperse the crowd but they return later to shout more abuse. (South Wales Echo 8.9.05)
3 September 2005: Huddersfield Daily Examiner reports that a Muslim teacher at Honley Infants School has been subjected to a racist letter writing campaign. The letter claiming to be from a group of parents at the school says that the Muslim woman should not be employed by the Christian school. Kirklees council has stated that it does not respond to anonymous complaints. (Huddersfield Daily Examiner 3.9.05)
3 September 2005: A 17-year-old Asian cycling home in Canterbury is racially abused by a gang of men and women. Down the road, he is attacked by a man on a moped who hits him with a crash helmet and then punches him until he loses consciousness. As the victim is being treated by ambulance staff at the scene, his father arrives and he, too, is attacked. Police arrest five people, two men and three women, who have all been bailed until 5 October. (Kent Online 6.9.05)
30 August 2005: IC Croydon reports that Asian shopkeepers in Stoneleigh Broadway are suffering nightly attacks by gangs who racially abuse staff and customers and steal from them. (IC Croydon 30.8.05)
26 August 2005: Two boulders are thrown through the window of a house in Chard, Somerset. Police are treating the attack as racially motivated as the house is occupied by Portuguese people. (This is the West Country 31.8.05)
20 August 2005: Two children, aged 7 and 13, are racially abused as they walk to nearby shops on the Nunsthorpe estate in Grimsby. The following day, the two children are again racially abused by a larger gang of youth; the incidents leave them too sacred to leave their home. (Grimsby Telegraph 23.8.05)
19 August 2005: Racist graffiti including NF and BNP slogans is sprayed over a church in Rickmansworth; damage is also caused to windows and the church interior. (Watford Observer 30.8.05)
18 August 2005: A window is smashed at the Bodrun kebab shop in Newbury. On 7 September a 17-year-old girl is charged with criminal damage and racially aggravated harassment; she is bailed. (Click Newbury 7.9.05)
17 August 2005: Three youths, aged, 15, 17 and 16, are charged with wounding with intent to cause GBH to a 15-year-old Bangladeshi student who suffered serious head injuries in an attack in Sunderland. The youths are all bailed. The 17-year-old also faces additional charges of racially aggravated assault, causing ABH and racially aggravated criminal damage. (Sunderland Echo 18.8.05)
12 August 2005: Tolga Uyan, A Turkish take away owner, suffers bruising to his arm, a blood shot eye, scratches to his arm and a ripped shirt after a woman allegedly attacks him at his Easington take away. He also alleges that he was racially abused. The woman who works as a prison guard at Holme House prison is arrested with her son on suspicion of assault and criminal damage. (Sunderland Echo 19.8.05)
5 August 2005: A group of Black friends on a night out in Hereford are racially abused in two separate incidents. In the first, they are abused by a number of youths travelling in four cars and in the second, by a group of three men in their late 40s. The Hereford Times also reports that racist graffiti has recently been daubed in the town and shops have also been reportedly putting up signs banning Eastern Europeans. (Hereford Times 22.8.05)
2 August 2005: A 30-year-old Black man suffers serious facial fractures after being racially attacked by a gang of five local men in Grimsby. Police are treating the attack as racially motivated. (Grimsby Telegraph 3.8.05)
24 July 2005: A 26-year-old man of Pakistani origin is kicked unconscious by two men who kick his head like a football as he lies on the floor. First, the man was racially abused as he shopped in a late night supermarket, and then he was followed out by the two men who attacked him further down the street in Hove. (Brighton Argus 25.8.05)
23 July 2005: Racists throw a brick with a racist message attached through the window of a home in the Highfields area of Leicester. Another brick is thrown at the same house the following day and at another house in the area. (Leicester Mercury 2.9.05)
12 July 2005: A 15-year-old girl, walking her dog, is approached by two White women who tell her to 'get out of their country' and then push her to the ground punching and kicking her. The young girl has been attacked before by the same two women, who had called her a 'P**i'. (This is Oxfordshire 14.7.05)

http://www.irr.org.uk/2005/september/ha000012.html

[Petrus]

personally, I'm concerned that the EU's human rights laws will possibly destabilize Turkey and will allow the influence of the scary brand of Islam to flourish.

If you want an example of a once non-scary country that became a hotbed of that nasty type of Islam then you can look at Pakistan. I know Pakistan is not in the EU blahblahblah but it did go down that fundamentalist path quite swiftly. A couple of decades of free reign for the scaries and you may find Turkey a completely different place in 2020.

That’s my point.

What makes the islamist ideology unable to reach power and to impose a religious based society in Turkey?

The army.

Is the military institution of a country an acceptable element to block the will of the people democratically expressed in European union?

No.

What will make impossible for Turkey to become a segregationist country once the army will be limited to it’s military task?

Nothing at the moment.


As long as Turkey has not found a way to remain a democratic country by democratic means, it shall remain outside of Europe and this cannot be negotiated.

[Ja'chyra]

While I'm not doubting any of your examples Red sometimes I do wonder if everything reported as racial incidents are, in fact, racial.

I'll give you an example if someone calls me a Scottish whatever is that a racial attack or just plain simple common or garden abuse, if you say it is racial then what if they left off the Scottish part? Would it then just be abuse? For those who say that is a racial attack I would ask why? My main concern would be the "whatever" they called me not the fact that they tagged on Scottish, Jock, Sweaty (Sweaty sock = Jock) or even black, Jew, Chinky etc.

Maybe it's just me but I don't see calling a black man black, or a Scottish man Scottish, as insulting, but then if I'm going to insult someone it'll be because they've done somehting to me not just because they're different.

[Byzantine Prince]

I believe you would be incorrect. Check out Byzantine Prince's comments - it smacks of racism far worse then what is in the United States, its just better hidden in polite language.

How is it racism, calling them what they are? The turksih guy posted right underneath me and agreed with me. We are not as PC in that area of the world as you are. We call things what they are.