Relief effort has racial element?

[econ21]

Rather, as stated by English Assassin, there is a huge social element.

The other element - aside from class - that strikes me is health. Seeing the sick and the infirm trapped was particularly heart-wrenching. The image of a blanket covering a body in a wheelchair is a haunting one.

To be honest, though, I am not sure how well the UK would have handled this - unlike the Dutch case AdrianII mentioned, I don't think we have a precedent. Presumably, the institutionalised were evacuated in NO - it's those at home who were left. Making sure all the sick and infirm in city were taken out of their own homes would be an incredible administrative effort.

[Adrian II]

The other element - aside from class - that strikes me is health.

Sure, but what strikes me most is the absence of government from the local level all the way to the top. In my country a mayor would have been standing on top of that levee even if there was a huge risk that it would break. Happens all the time here when there is a risk of flooding. A mayor either evacuates his town and makes sure he is the last one out, or he stays there with everyone else to ride it out and be seen to ride it out. He is responsible for the maintenance of dykes and levees in his district, and if he runs he is fired on the spot by the Minister of the Interior. Of course said minister would not be vacationing on his ranch, nor would our Prime Minister chose to attend a fund raiser or the Foreign Secretary be shopping for shoes at the critical moment. Sorry for the rant, but I still find the whole thing over there surreal.

[Devastatin Dave]

Sure, but what strikes me most is the absence of government from the local level all the way to the top. In my country a mayor would have been standing on top of that levee even if there was a huge risk that it would break. Happens all the time here when there is a risk of flooding. A mayor either evacuates his town and makes sure he is the last one out, or he stays there with everyone else to ride it out and be seen to ride it out. He is responsible for the maintenance of dykes and levees in his district, and if he runs he is fired on the spot by the Minister of the Interior. Of course said minister would not be vacationing on his ranch, nor would our Prime Minister chose to attend a fund raiser or the Foreign Secretary be shopping for shoes at the critical moment. Sorry for the rant, but I still find the whole thing over there surreal.

Best post of the thread. This mayor is hollow...

[Adrian II]

Best post of the thread. This mayor is hollow...

He is only a symptom. Looks like the real culprit here is hostility to government. Not contempt for blacks or the poor or the Army engineers, but contempt for government as a force for good. This ideology has prevailed in the U.S. for the past twenty-five years. Even after 9/11 it took a long time to wrench U.S. airport security out of the incompetent and cost-cutting hands of private companies. Go figure.

Oh, and we have our share of the same over here so this is no U.S. bashing. I am bashing an insane ideology that says everybody will be better off if we are all left to fend for ourselves.

[KukriKhan]

New Orleans had a population just under 5 million. London is about 7.5 million, with (arguably) better public transport. Could you totally evacuate London in 24 hours?

Point taken on the apparent 'asleep at the wheel' -ness of some of our leadership.

[Adrian II]

New Orleans had a population just under 5 million.

Sorry, under 500.000. In any modern city they could have been evacuated in twelve hours time. So we don't know what might have been if that mayor would have got off his you-know-what in the first place.

Of course, if you don't have sufficient police and infrastructure, engineers, buses and whatnot, the task becomes daunting, but that is a sign of absent government as well.

When the city of Mumbai in India was flooded there was no looting, no break-down, a very low number of dead and no food shortage which is remarkable for India. In case you wonder, Mumbai has 20 million inhabitants.

This little baby is called Nabi, she landed just yesterday on the Chinese coast.



In Anhui province alone more than 100,000 people had to leave their homes. Almost 12,000 homes were damaged in the south-eastern coastal city of Wenzhou, in Zhejiang province. Accordig to Xinhua up to a million people were moved from low-lying coastal flood plains in Zhejiang and Fujian provinces.

[KukriKhan]

You're right, of course (mis-counted my zero's). My follow-up question was: "IF some where left behind in a 'total' evacuation, who would those folks likely be?", with the built-in answer being "Those least resourced for transportation", i.e. the poor.

Don't get me wrong; I'm no defender of any level of government in this debacle. I can sort of understand how they got caught flat-footed on recognizing the threat (with the storm going from Cat I to Cat V in 24 hours), but the failure to effectively coordinate ANY phase of response so far just has me baffled, more than a little embarrassed, and sometimes downright outraged.

[Adrian II]

Don't get me wrong; I'm no defender of any level of government in this debacle. I can sort of understand how they got caught flat-footed on recognizing the threat (with the storm going from Cat I to Cat V in 24 hours), but the failure to effectively coordinate ANY phase of response so far just has me baffled, more than a little embarrassed, and sometimes downright outraged.

I understand and agree. I would just add that apparently New Orleans had no plan, only a big sign that said 'Run!'

The reason why some of us non-Americans are hammering on these issues is that we are all human beings and when something like this happens you are outraged no matter where you live -- just like many American patrons here were outraged when the tsunami-aid for Sri Lanka and Indonesia was slow in coming.

Of course the usual suspects won't skip this great opportunity for some good old bashing..

[yesdachi]

You're right, of course (mis-counted my zero's). My follow-up question was: "IF some where left behind in a 'total' evacuation, who would those folks likely be?", with the built-in answer being "Those least resourced for transportation", i.e. the poor.

I think I might be more inclined to say the stupid. After seeing more interviews with survivors I cant do anything but shake my head. Of course poor and stupid probably walk hand in hand.

Still no excuse for the total lack of leadership from local gov. and poor response time from the federal gov.

I saw on the news a night or two ago where trucks of supplies (with news teams in them-vultures) from Michigan were the first to arrive in a Mississippi town hit hard by the hurricane. How can supplies from Michigan get there before supplies from the Gov. or even from states closer? There are 6 stated between Michigan and Mississippi. And where was the mayor of this Mississippi town? Do all local gov. officials disappear when their city is in trouble? This mayor or others like him couldn’t have gotten on the phone and ordered a truck load of water and supplies from a grocery store a few hundred miles north?

Asleep at the wheel indeed.

[Red Harvest]

Sorry, under 500.000. In any modern city they could have been evacuated in twelve hours time. So we don't know what might have been if that mayor would have got off his you-know-what in the first place.

Where did you get that 12 hour estimate from? It takes 12 hours just to get started on an evacuation of that scale. Many people will be at work--yes, even on Saturday and Sunday as quite a few of the industries are 24 hour operations with shifts, plus the employers had to prepare for the storm--you don't just flip an off switch on a refinery. There were something like 1.5 million in the whole area that had to evacuate, often using the same routes. And New Orleans is more remote than many cities because of the river, Gulf, and bayous. Even those who evacuated the coast often still ended up in areas that were hard hit and out of power, gas, etc.

Plus, you need to understand that people tried to board up/prep their homes before they left. When you hear a storm is coming you begin prepping your house and gathering stuff to leave. It isn't like you hop in your car immediately.

FEMA's own test scenario showed that many would be unable to evacuate, lacking transport. Institutions and hospitals could not be emptied easily, and there were not enough buses, nor people to manage the effort. Tourists got trapped when the airlines quit flying and all rental cars/vans/buses were already committed.

The webcams showed the roads packed on Sunday evening when I looked so I don't see how what many believe is true: that everyone even with cars who wanted could have gotten out. My sister-in-law weathered the storm in Baton Rouge because her responsibilities prevented her from being able to consider leaving until Sunday afternoon, at which time the roads were full.

I suspect you way overestimate the availability of buses in a given area of the U.S., you are probably thinking in terms of European bus to populace ratios, but admittedly that is just speculation on my part. To get enough buses, they would have had to have been marshalled from outside New Orleans at least 24 hours before the storm. While the eye of the storm hit at 7AM Monday, those causeways and highways would have been impassable many hours before that. (I don't know when/if they were actually closed but suspect well before midnight.)

[English assassin]

New Orleans had a population just under 5 million. London is about 7.5 million, with (arguably) better public transport. Could you totally evacuate London in 24 hours?

Point taken on the apparent 'asleep at the wheel' -ness of some of our leadership.

Most internet sources seem to be putting the city population at about 0.5 million?

Point taken, its far from a trival undertaking. And I certainly don't mean to suggest an equivalent UK operation would not be incompetently executed. Very probably it would, and the US execution, when the US execution actually begins, will probably be more efficient.

But there would at least be a plan at the start that included the poor and the infirm.

Anyway, a further point, with my deconstruction hat on, whether or not the fiasco to date has been caused by a "racial element", it sure as hell has a racial element now, doesn't it? Rightly or (as I believe) wrongly. And, you know, the factoid that Bush cut short his holiday to sign emergency legislation for Terry Schiavo, but remained away from Washington for this...well, interesting. I guess Bush knows what pushes his supporters buttons. Maybe he thinks they care more about one right to life case than a few thousand starving blacks?

Just asking.

[KukriKhan]

Anyway, a further point, with my deconstruction hat on, whether or not the fiasco to date has been caused by a "racial element", it sure as hell has a racial element now, doesn't it? Rightly or (as I believe) wrongly. And, you know, the factoid that Bush cut short his holiday to sign emergency legislation for Terry Schiavo, but remained away from Washington for this...well, interesting. I guess Bush knows what pushes his supporters buttons. Maybe he thinks they care more about one right to life case than a few thousand starving blacks?

Just asking.

Not just the Executive...Congress, too. (Link below is to an editorial cartoon).

[Aenlic]

I don't necessarily think that some of the problems were racial; but there have been instances in the event with a definite economic status bias. Do a little digging into what happened at the two hospitals across the road from each other. One, the Tulane University Medical Center was a private hospital, the place to care for the wealthy. The other Charity Hospital was a public hospital existing entirely on charity donations and cared for the poor without insurance. Care to guess which one was evacuated entirely in less than a day while the other - right across the street had no power, no food, no water, dwindling medical supplies, rising water and no evacuations for days?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Was the public one run by the govt?

I'm guessing no, if it was funded by donations...

[Aenlic]

Charity Hospital, known really as Big Charity, but officially called the Medical Center of Louisiana at New Orleans is (was) run by the Lousiana State University system. It was the oldest continuously operated hospital in the U.S. up until last week. Yes, it's government run; but by the LSU system. It received funds from donations and from reimbursements for Medicaid and Medicare. New Orleans had, until last week, ranked 5th highest in the U.S. in terms of the percentage of its population without health insurance, and New Orleans was the 4th most impoverished city in the U.S. as of last week. Charity was the hospital of last resort, as opposed to the much more expensive private Tulane Hospital.

[Devastatin Dave]

http://www.washtimes.com/national/pruden.htm

This pretty much has all that i wanted to say. Why did the mayor wait so late for the mandatory evacuation and didn't move the buses to higher ground? Oh, he's black BTW. Why didn't Jesse Jackson and other poverty pimps go and help evacuate the people? There is no racial element here. Yes, I would say a economical issue, but still the MAYOR did not prepar HIS city. You should see the intervues with this clown. All he does is deflect any criticism. He' no Gulliani.
http://neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/4034.php
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.nagin/

Go down about halfway to read the intervue with Nagin...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...05/ltm.01.html
I really like this part...
"He called me in that office after that. And he said, “Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor.” I said — and I don’t remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision.

S. O’BRIEN: You’re telling me the president told you the governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision?

NAGIN: Yes.

S. O’BRIEN: Regarding what? Bringing troops in?

NAGIN: Whatever they had discussed. As far as what the — I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.

S. O’BRIEN: And the governor said no.

NAGIN: She said that she needed 24 hours to make a decision. It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out. It didn’t happen, and more people died."

Here's an article on the "Welfare State" and its effects to the midnset of the victoms..
http://www.rightnation.us/forums/ind...howtopic=86931

And the last article, just for old times sake...
http://americandaily.com/article/9101

[econ21]

Presumably, the institutionalised were evacuated in NO ...

Care to guess which one [hospital] was evacuated entirely in less than a day while the other - right across the street had no power, no food, no water, dwindling medical supplies, rising water and no evacuations for days?

Oh boy, sounds like I assumed too much. The authorities could not even evacuate a hospital, even after the flood?