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  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    LOL! From now on every citizen should build his own levee! Why didn't they think of it before? Sorry, it is becoming impossible to take you serious anymore, Gawain.
    I suggest its you who shouldnt be taken seriously anymore. If you lived somewhere where they said if a force 4 hurricane hits you ciity will be under water and were told a force 4 or 5 hurricane was headed there would you just stay there? If you were the mayor would you evacuate the place or not? They knew the levies wouldnt hold and yet they stayed. The Mayor knew and yet didnt put into effect the evacutaion plan at all.All I can say is their lucky the storm veered away at the last minute.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    If you lived somewhere where they said if a force 4 hurricane hits your city (..)
    Who would 'they' be? Ah, the evil government! I thought you would never rely on the goverment, Gawain?

    Really, nearly everything you have posted about Katrina has been self-defeating. Remember that paranoid Boontz-blog you quoted? The one with the racist undertones that said the NO authorities demanded that everyone hand in their guns when they entered the Superdome so they would be easy prey for gangs and rapists? Man, oh man...
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    I doubt that there was, or is, any racist component.

    As to whether class plays into it, the only demonstrable truth is that those lacking the personal resources to evacuate (for whatever reason) were in the greatest danger.

    Planning:

    Apparently, NO had a written evac/hurricane plan ready to go. Known time required for complete evacuation -- included the disadvantaged and hospitalized -- was 72 hours from the mayor's "GO" signal. The mayor's emergency power would have been sufficient to declare the evac provided that the state of emergency had been acknowledged.

    Unfortunately, the plan wasn't implemented and may not have been well known to anyone outside the NO government committee that developed it. SNAFU then became FUBAR when the levees went.

    Seamus
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  4. #4
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Apparently, NO had a written evac/hurricane plan ready to go.
    Apparently both the State and the City had one. This is the Louisiana plan. I can't seem to find the City of New Orleans plan.

    Here is a line-up of crucial episodes by the BBC which is still tentative, I guess, in the sense that reporters don't know what went on behind the screens. It is being updated once a day.

    Multiple failures caused relief crisis
    Analysis
    By Paul Reynolds
    World Affairs correspondent, BBC News website

    The breakdown of the relief operation in New Orleans was the result of multiple failures by city, state and federal authorities.
    Evacuation at last, but why so late?

    There was no one cause. The failures began long before the hurricane with a gamble that a Category Four or Five hurricane would not strike New Orleans.

    They continued with an inadequate evacuation plan and culminated in a relief effort hampered by lack of planning, supplies and manpower, and a breakdown in communications of the most basic sort.

    On top of all this, there is the question of whether an earlier intervention by President Bush could have a made a big difference.

    The planning

    Before Hurricane Katrina struck, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (Fema) was confident that it was ready. Its director, Michael Brown, said: "Fema has pre-positioned many assets including ice, water, food and rescue teams to move into the stricken areas as soon as it is safe to do so."

    Mr Brown even told the Associated Press news agency that the evacuation had gone well. "I was impressed with the evacuation, once it was ordered it was very smooth," he said.

    Yet on Saturday 28 August, the day before the evacuation was ordered, Mr Brown did not say that people should leave the city. All he said was:

    "There's still time to take action now, but you must be prepared and take shelter and other emergency precautions immediately."
    This has made Fema appear complacent in the period immediately before the hurricane arrived. If it did not expect the worst, it would not have prepared for the worst.

    The Brown statement went out on the same day that the National Hurricane Center was warning that Katrina was strengthening to the top Category Five. Everyone knew the dangers of a Category Five. A Fema exercise last year called "Hurricane Pam" had looked at a Category Three, and that was bad enough.

    The evacuation

    It was announced at a news conference by the Mayor Ray Nagin on Sunday 28 August, less than 24 hours before the hurricane struck early the next morning.

    The question has to be asked: Why was it not ordered earlier?

    The Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said at the same news conference that President Bush had called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation.

    The night before, National Hurricane Director Max Mayfield had called Mayor Nagin to tell him that an evacuation was needed. Why were these calls necessary?

    School buses still lined up after the hurricane

    Again, as with Fema, the New Orleans mayor should have known that on the Saturday, Katrina was strengthening to Five.

    It was already clear on the Sunday that the evacuation would not cover many of the poor, the sick and those who did not pay heed.

    The mayor said people going to the Superdome, a sports venue named as an alternative destination for those unable to leave, should bring supplies for several days. He also said police could commandeer any vehicle for the evacuation.

    But how much support was there at the Superdome? And how much city transport was actually used? There is a photo showing city school buses still lined up, in waterlogged parking lots, after the hurricane.

    There are questions for the mayor, dubbed heroic by some, to answer.

    The relief operation

    The scenes which most shocked the world were at the Superdome and the nearby Convention Center. Yet it turns out that neither Mr Brown nor his boss, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, knew about the crises there until Thursday.

    This, despite numerous television reports from the scene. It was not until Friday that the first relief convoy arrived.

    "It was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap, and that essentially the lake was going to drain into the city."
    Michael Chertoff, Homeland Security Secretary

    "The very day that this emerged in the press, I was on a video conference with all the officials, including state and local officials. And nobody, none of the state and local officials or anybody else, was talking about a Convention Center," Chertoff told CNN. Note how he blames local officials.

    Nor did he know about the breach in the floodwalls until a day later.

    "It was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap, and that essentially the lake was going to drain into the city," he said on NBC.

    Other, more successful operations, notably the airlift by the Coast Guard, should be acknowledged.

    And in a disaster area the size of Great Britain, resources were stretched.

    But ironically the failure at the Convention Center would have been fairly easy to put right. Reporters drove there without problems. One took a taxi.

    What, one wonders, was Fema/the mayor's office/the governor's office doing while all that was played out on live TV?

    One lesson agencies might want to learn is that someone senior should do nothing but monitor TV.

    Some of this might explain why people at the Superdome and the Convention Center had to wait so long. It does not explain why communications were not better.

    Another sign of slowness was that the Department of Homeland Security did not issue the first ever declaration of an "incident of national significance" until the Wednesday. Such a declaration allows the federal government a greater role in taking decisions.

    One lesson agencies might want to learn is that someone senior should do nothing but monitor TV

    In fact, the arguments between federal and state authorities about who was able to do what is another part of this story.

    The Department of Homeland Security said the local authorities were inadequate. The locals responded that Fema had been obstructive - it had, for example, stopped three truckloads of water sent by the store Wal-Mart. And so on.

    It took days to sort out who should send troops and from where.

    Indeed, the intricacies of the various responsibilties of state and federal authorities do not always allow for quick decision making, though that did not stop rapid action in New York City on 9/11.

    Nor does Governor Blanco escape criticism. It took until Thursday, for example, for her to sign an order releasing school buses to move the evacuees.

    The president's response

    Mr Bush has been blamed for failing to rise to the occasion. His critics argue that he took too long to get back to Washington and did not provide the inspirational leadership needed at such a time. Nor, it is said, did he intervene early enough to get things moving.

    Washington Post correspondent Dan Balz concluded:

    "Anger has been focused on Bush and his administration to a degree unprecedented in his presidency. Senator Mary Landrieu [a Louisiana Democrat] said in an ABC News interview that aired Sunday that she would consider punching the president and others for their response to what happened there. Local officials, some in tears, have angrily accused the administration of callousness and negligence."

    The president's defenders point out that it was he who urged an evacuation of New Orleans (he has no legal power to order one) and that he did acknowledge the "unacceptable" pace of the relief effort. Further, they say that aid is now flowing and reconstruction will take place.

    Another issue for Mr Bush is why Michael Brown was appointed director of Fema. He had previously been its deputy and had been hired as its general counsel by the director Joe Allbaugh, George Bush's chief of staff when he was Texas governor. Mr Brown, a lawyer from Oklahoma, played a role in studying the government's response to national emergencies. Before that he had run the Arab horse association.

    Senator Hillary Clinton has said that Fema should be removed from the Homeland Security Department and made an independent agency again.

    The gamble

    When Hurricane Camille, a rare top Category Five storm, hit Mississippi in 1969, just missing New Orleans, the levees around the city were strengthened - but only enough to protect against a Category Three hurricane.

    The gamble was taken that another Category Five would not threaten New Orleans anytime soon. This attitude prevailed among successive administrations.

    Lt General Carl Strock, the Army Corps of Engineers commander, admitted that there was a collective mindset - that New Orleans would not be hit. Washington rolled the dice, he said.

    After flooding in 1995, the existing system was improved. However, the sums were relatively small. About $500m was spent over the next 10 years.

    From 2003 onwards, the Bush administration cut funds amid charges from the Army Corps of Engineers that the money was transferred to Iraq instead. The latest annual budget was cut from $36.5m to $10.4m.

    A study to examine defences against a category Four or Five storm was proposed, at a cost of $4m. The Times-Picayune quoted the Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi as saying: "The Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies."

    But in any event, there was no plan for a major strengthening. This would have taken billions of dollars and many years.

    And an Army Corps of Engineers spokeswoman, Connie Gillette, said there had never been any plans or funds to improve those floodwalls which had failed.

    Update: a reader has pointed out a quote in the New York Times indicating that the failed floodwalls had in fact previously been strengthened:

    '"Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said [it] was particularly surprising because the break was "along a section that was just upgraded." "It did not have an earthen levee," Dr. Penland said. "It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick."' It is a long and complex chain of responsibility.

    All these issues, and many more, will now be the subject of congressional and other inquiries.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    I fail to see how this has anything to do with a hostility towards government Adrian. Who was hostile towards government, the people who evacuated or the people who did as they were told and went to the superdome?

    On the contrary, it has everything to do with the incompetency of the local government. Making it bigger does not solve this problem.

    PS - First you pushed gun control and now you are pushing bigger government.. I sense a bit of an agenda.

  6. #6
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    I fail to see how this has anything to do with a hostility towards government Adrian.
    I mean the hostility against government that began with Ronald Reagan, based on the notion that the govenment is the citizen's worst nightmare. Cut-backs, tax cuts or tax ceilings, privatisations and outsourcing of government tasks or staff to the private sector, together with the adverse rhetoric of 'Who needs government?' have led to an erosion of the government's sense of purpose. Poor Mr Brown's failure over the past week is not just the result of his incompetence. It is also the result of a situation where he was faced with calls for greater domestic terrorism preparedness on the one hand, and years of funding cuts, personnel departures and FEMA's downgrading from a cabinet-level agency to a subordinate department of Homeland Security on the other hand.
    Who was hostile towards government, the people who evacuated or the people who did as they were told and went to the superdome?
    All of them were, and I guess all of them feel let down. Even those who survived will wonder why those levees were never upgraded.
    PS - First you pushed gun control and now you are pushing bigger government.. I sense a bit of an agenda.
    Well spotted. I actually have political views of my own. What amazes me is that views are suddenly called 'agendas'. Are you suspecting me of planning to run for U.S. Senator or something?
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Apparently both the State and the City had one. This is the Louisiana plan. I can't seem to find the City of New Orleans plan.

    Here is a line-up of crucial episodes by the BBC which is still tentative, I guess, in the sense that reporters don't know what went on behind the screens. It is being updated once a day.
    There are some major errors in the early time line for that BBC report. It looks like parts of it are confusing Greenwich time/dates with local time/dates. Evacuation was ordered by Nagin on the afternoon of the 27th in New Orleans. It was made mandatory at 9 AM on the 28th--the BBC appears to have confused the two and ignored the initial evacuation calls. The situation did worsen rapidly from the initial impressions and by late Saturday it had shifted into worst fear mode. (Prior to that the storm path shifted from the Florida panhandle to New Orleans rapidly as well.)

    The impression I had at the time was that even though everyone realised this one could be a problem, it went from Category 1 to Category 5 so fast, and shifted paths so fundamentally, that the apparatus of evacuation was in "catch-up" mode.

    By the time Bush and the LA governor called for a mandatory it was already in place... By noon the contraflow traffic system was established. This still would have given less than 12 hours of effective evacuation time at max capacity.
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  8. #8
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    Evacuation was ordered by Nagin on the afternoon of the 27th in New Orleans. It was made mandatory at 9 AM on the 28th -- the BBC appears to have confused the two and ignored the initial evacuation calls.
    According to CNN, Nagin advised evacuation on Saturday 27 and made it mandatory at 10 am on Sunday. Blanco and Barbour had already declared emergency status on Friday 26 around 4 pm.

    As for evacuation times, the rule of thumb in emergency situations in modern cities is 4 times the normal time needed to leave a city, provided of course that exit roads are not blocked (one-way outbound traffic must be guaranteed by traffic control) and public transport is available for those without cars. Assuming the normal time to be an average of 2 hours, that makes 8 hours. Plus 4 for packing and other eventualitiesm that makes twelve. However, you are probably right that the metropolitan area is particularly difficult to evacuate. In the Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation Plan it says:

    • The Greater New Orleans Metropolitan Area represents a difficult
      evacuation problem due to the large population and it’s unique layout.
    • This area is located in a floodplain much of which lies below sea level
      and is surrounded by an extensive marine estuarine system of lakes,
      canals, bayous, the Gulf of Mexico and the Mississippi River. Some
      parish storm drainage systems discharge into area waterways. High
      water levels would impede adequate pumping and prevent relief against
      flooding from heavy rainfall.
    • It will take a long time to evacuate large numbers of people from the
      Region.
    • The road systems used for evacuations are limited, and many of the
      roadways are near bodies of water and susceptible to flooding.

    Mind you, three-quarter of residents of the wider area did get out in time. There were traffic jams, as there always are, but they were resolved as they always are. Bo broken bridges, no flooded roads. Most people drove out along the assigned E-roads by private means as the Plan states in its list of 'Assumptions':

    • The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
      School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
      provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
      for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
      evacuating.

    Those left behind were in many cases literally left behind. There were no buses. In the Plan's paragraph on 'Recommended Evacuation' (the stage preceding mandatory evacuation) one of the first items mentioned is this:

    • Mobilize parish/local transportation to assist persons who
      lack transportation or who have mobility problems.

    I keep wondering where those buses were. Maybe you are right and it is just because I am a European. But they were part of the plan...
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    To address Adrian and Red Harvests points.

    Well last time I took a road trip down to New Orleans - I saw only three ways into the city. One was from the West on I-10 over the swamp. THe other was also I-10 from the east over the lake and a swamp. And a two lane road that was from the north - again over a swamp. One can not think of evacuation of New Orleans in the context of any European or any other United States City. New Orleans has very limited access points by the means of a ground road network. One of those ways out of the city is directlty into the storm. That left the two other ways that I know of. There might be others - but New Orleans is not a city with multiple exits in multiple directions as seen in any other city in the United States.

    .
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Blanco and Barbour had already declared emergency status on Friday 26 around 4 pm
    I'm not sure that is correct. At that time the storm was not that strong and was over Florida. It was 8AM Saturday when it started to really strengthen. There was a meeting about Hurricane Cindy (previous month) about the time you report, and an initial emergency declaration letter was sent to Bush by Blanco sometime that day (likely as a result of some of the experiences with Cindy and the meeting.)
    • Mobilize parish/local transportation to assist persons who
      lack transportation or who have mobility problems.

    I keep wondering where those buses were. Maybe you are right and it is just because I am a European. But they were part of the plan...
    They were part of the plan, but they were not available in sufficient number. This was a recognized deficiency in the FEMA test run. It was already expected that a substantial portion of the population would be unable to get out.

    You not only must have the buses (and drivers)--no small task in a city with such a large poor population--but you must also have TIME. You can't collect and load and get out instantly. Lacking time, local officials moved those who could not get out by BUS to the Superdome. This was a collection effort that was underway to use what buses they had.

    As I've also said, I saw quite a few buses leaving the city in webcams during the Sunday evacaution.

    Note: "Adised evacuation" = voluntary vacuation. The U.S. doesn't typically go to mandatory right away. People were starting to respond, but it isn't instantaneous.

    As for why New Orleans might not have responded as vigorously: they had a levee that was good to Category 3. Having that back up makes decision making slower and more complex. Exactly when do you switch from "ride it out" to "head for the hills?"

    Curfew was at 6 PM on Sunday, so with hurricane force winds expected by midnight, I'll bet vehicular traffic had been halted by 9 PM. No way would that be enough time. Not even close.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    But in any event, there was no plan for a major strengthening. This would have taken billions of dollars and many years.
    Cutting the levee budget was an easy sell I'd wager. Many conservatives didn't want to spend the money and environmentalist lefties railed against larger levee systems for their own reasons. No one was interested in investing more resources on the levees- even the NY Times called the project bad legislation and a waste of money.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Cutting the levee budget was an easy sell I'd wager. Many conservatives didn't want to spend the money and environmentalist lefties railed against larger levee systems for their own reasons. No one was interested in investing more resources on the levees- even the NY Times called the project bad legislation and a waste of money.
    Indeed. It also doesn't help their cause when they are a Democratic bastion in an era of GOP rule. (Same would be true if roles were reversed of course, ugliness of partisan politics.) Some folks resist infrastructure improvements as a matter of course. They will gladly shell out money for the military, but not for infrastructure.

    The "environmnetalist lefties" are actually correct to a degree. There is some need to end the loss of the barrier/wetlands area that has resulted from some of the river control. I'm not well informed on how this could be done, but the loss of these areas does make inhabited areas more vulnerable to big storms.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Who would 'they' be? Ah, the evil government! I thought you would never rely on the goverment, Gawain?
    If you didnt rely on them at all there would be no levies and no disaster thats true. Im talking about engineers here not the government. I also never said to neve ely on the govenment. Thats a stupid statement. Relying on them as little as possible though is another matter.

    Really, nearly everything you have posted about Katrina has been self-defeating.
    Says you

    Really, nearly everything you have posted about Katrina has been self-defeating. Remember that paranoid Boontz-blog you quoted? The one with the racist undertones that said the NO authorities demanded that everyone hand in their guns when they entered the Superdome so they would be easy prey for gangs and rapists? Man, oh man...
    You sound like the racist here. He never mentioned race.
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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Relief effort has racial element?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Who would 'they' be? Ah, the evil government! I thought you would never rely on the goverment, Gawain?

    Really, nearly everything you have posted about Katrina has been self-defeating. Remember that paranoid Boontz-blog you quoted? The one with the racist undertones that said the NO authorities demanded that everyone hand in their guns when they entered the Superdome so they would be easy prey for gangs and rapists? Man, oh man...
    I believe they would have also been the “media” and everyone listens to them.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

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