Relief effort has racial element?

[Red Harvest]

Once again: eighty percent made it, no matter how many difficulties you perceive. And perhaps another ten percent would have made it if...

And ~10% were in fact moved to shelters by buses/foot traffic in the time available. And 10% couldn't/wouldn't get out in the time available. So what is the point? Unless you had the bus plan worked out well in advance and brought in many OUTSIDE buses (meaning it was not local) and had plenty of people to facilitate moving people onto the buses...you still had a huge problem. You also have to move past "mandatory" to "forced" requiring lots of outside law enforcement. Whether you leave behind 10 or 20% you still have a massive number left behind, and you must be planning to supply them promptly until you can evacuate them.

Of course we are speaking in normative terms. If you have a President who declares that 'nobody had expected those levees to break' it becomes a whole different game.

There were plenty including the President and his appointees who seem to have ignored the obvious. I expected much of the city to be swamped on landfall--fortunately the track shifted East and the storm weakened a little. I still think New Orleans was comparitively "lucky" with regards to the storm iteslf. That is why the poor response to the easily foreseen flooding is so frustrating and frightening. This could have been far worse, and nobody outside was prepared except the Coast Guard.

[Adrian II]

And ~10% were in fact moved to shelters by buses/foot traffic in the time available. And 10% couldn't/wouldn't get out in the time available. So what is the point?

The point is there would possibly have been no Superdome tragedy.

There are 7.725 school buses in the State of Louisiana.

Press Release
Louisiana Governor's Office

Date: 9/1/2005

Governor Blanco Announces Executive Order

Baton Rouge, LA— Governor Blanco today announced the following Executive Order:

Executive Order NO. KBB 2005- 31- provides that pursuant to the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., grants emergency powers to the governor, where, she has in consultation with school superintendents, utilized public school buses for transportation of Hurricane Katrina evacuees. As you are aware most public school districts will not begin school until Tuesday, September 6th 2005.

Only on Thursday, my man -- five full days after recommended evacuation was proclaimed.

[Red Harvest]

The point is there would possibly have been no Superdome tragedy.

There are 7.725 school buses in the State of Louisiana.

Press Release
Louisiana Governor's Office

Date: 9/1/2005

Governor Blanco Announces Executive Order

Baton Rouge, LA— Governor Blanco today announced the following Executive Order:

Executive Order NO. KBB 2005- 31- provides that pursuant to the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., grants emergency powers to the governor, where, she has in consultation with school superintendents, utilized public school buses for transportation of Hurricane Katrina evacuees. As you are aware most public school districts will not begin school until Tuesday, September 6th 2005.

Only on Thursday, my man -- five full days after recommended evacuation was proclaimed.

Problem is, this wasn't already in place. Even if you have it in place you don't have much time. It needs coordination at state and local level to feed in buses. I'm guessing you need about 2,000 of these buses, with driver, and a guide/security/communications on each one to get the last 20% in New Orleans alone. Turnaround time from call up is probably on the order of 24 hours at best, based on call up time/organization time, travel time, load/collection time, and actual getting the heck out of dodge time (more than 6 hours itself.) Remember, you also have to route them to avoid contraflow congestion etc.

80/20 rule would seem to apply to evacuation. The first 80% won't take much time, the last 20% will require 80% of the effort.

This would need to be repeated for many smaller cities in the area. I believe this is the way we need to go, but it isn't something we are going to be able to do successfully without some forethought. We need to be doing this sort of planning all along the coast, the Mississippi, fault zones, volcanically active areas, etc. It's not so monumental as it sounds once a few model systems are worked out.

[doc_bean]

I don't think there is any intentional, large scale racial element to the relief effort. Like other people have pointed out, it's more of a class thing.

The way the politicians and the media react does however seem to be quite racist. I simply don't understand how politicians can act so cool when something like this happens, I do see this as a sign that there is something wrong with the system. A politician is supposed to stand for all the people under his care, not just the likely voters.

Adrian I really don't see how this has anything to do with big government versus small government. It has everything to with bad government however. The government (whether it be state city or federal) was responsible for the safety of the citizens, they neglected their responsibility. If it were up to me I'd have every one in the chain of command on trial for criminal neglect (or whatever it's called) on a few thousand cases.

Disasters like this have happened in a lot of places, no matter how the media likes to put the spotlight on this event. It is very rare however, to see it handled in such a bad way. I at least hope a lot of money can be raised to help those poor people rebuild their lives. I also hope that money gets to be spend in the right places. I fear a lot of companies involved in the reconstruction will charge a nice little overhead for themselves, just like in Iraq. This however is another issue, and one that does relate to a small government. For another time perhaps....

[Soulforged]

[QUOTE=doc_bean]

I don't think there is any intentional, large scale racial element to the relief effort. Like other people have pointed out, it's more of a class thing.

Well then perhaps the class has sticked to the race.

The way the politicians and the media react does however seem to be quite racist. I simply don't understand how politicians can act so cool when something like this happens, I do see this as a sign that there is something wrong with the system. A politician is supposed to stand for all the people under his care, not just the likely voters.

Well then you don't understand politics. The politicians only think on their next reelection and act oriented for that, they specially favour those who helped them to achieve power, wheter they're voters or corporations, the system works that way.

Disasters like this have happened in a lot of places, no matter how the media likes to put the spotlight on this event. It is very rare however, to see it handled in such a bad way. I at least hope a lot of money can be raised to help those poor people rebuild their lives. I also hope that money gets to be spend in the right places. I fear a lot of companies involved in the reconstruction will charge a nice little overhead for themselves, just like in Iraq. This however is another issue, and one that does relate to a small government. For another time perhaps....

Well here, saving all distances, happened the same. Rich people (the great majority) with minimal problems (like a short cut on the electricity suministre) were helped before the ones dying in Santa Fe. This classing system must be stoped sometime earlier or later, but it's notoriously terrible.

[Devastatin Dave]

Here is some of New Orleans "Finest" "controlling" looters...

http://www.zippyvideos.com/891102377...ng-in-walmart/

Unbelievable, I hope they get athletes foot from those shoes!!!

[Proletariat]

Eh, nm.

[Xiahou]

Here is some of New Orleans "Finest" "controlling" looters...

http://www.zippyvideos.com/891102377...ng-in-walmart/

Unbelievable, I hope they get athletes foot from those shoes!!!

Wow, that's something alright.
So much for being good role models. I hope they at least got to use their nightsticks/badges to reserve the good stuff for themselves.....

You know, when this is all over, I'd be suprised if any of them are disciplined for it.

[Soulforged]

I would like to know something: Is this the kind of looting that has caused the reaction of "shoot the looters"?

[doc_bean]

Well then you don't understand politics. The politicians only think on their next reelection and act oriented for that, they specially favour those who helped them to achieve power, wheter they're voters or corporations, the system works that way.

Actually, if the system would work like it was supposed to, the people who got neglected would vote for someone else next election, ensuring that the politician who wasn't concerned with their needs wouldn't get reelected.

Even if that didn't happen, the people who do vote should be so outraged at the behaviour of their representatives that they won't vote for them anymore either.
Do you think the mayor of New Orleans has a good shot at reelection ? I doubt it.

It seems that some of the politicians who are supposed to be responsible know their career is over and now just don't care anymore. Others (in Congress for instance) know they won't be held accountable personally, and Bush of course, can't get reelected anymore.
Everyone is just looking after their own arse, no one cares about the greater good of society

I would like to know something: Is this the kind of looting that has caused the reaction of "shoot the looters"?

I don't think so, a lot more violent looting has taken place, thios video is only about what happened on the first day...

[English assassin]

A slight detour back to the subject of people's "agendas" and whether its all the fault of big government. (Eh? Whatever)

In one of these threads, someone asked, what was the free market solution to rebuilding NO. By a curious coincidence, (the Org asks, the BBC answers) a congressman interviewed on the BBC on Monday answered exactly that question. He instanced the rebuilding of, I think a highway, it may have been a bridge, somewhere in california. He said that they had been told it would take two years, but by removing red tape and incentivising the contractor it got done in six months.

I despair. Consider:

Presumably even Mr Free Market agrees that bridges and highways should be built to certain specifications. So that, you know, they don't fall down. And those specifications need to be checked by engineers. Government engineers. So all we are arguing about is how much "red tape" there should be. OK, reasonable people may differ on the subject, but its not a profound point.

"Incentivising" contractors means paying them more money to do the job quicker. Taxpayers money, incidentally. Speeding up jobs by paying more does not strike me as a major political insight either.

The REAL free market solution is to allow anyone who wants to to build a bridge anywhere, and allow motorists to choose between them on the basis of the level of toll and how likely the bridge is to fall down due to cost cutting in its construction. Strangely enough no one seems to be advocating this, possibly because it is obviously insane.

Far from the eccentric view that this all proves that government is a bad thing, I have to say the scenes from NO really cause me to question this anti-government orthodoxy. As I understand it, the logic seems to be that incompetent government has failed, therefore the answer is, not better government, but no government. Eh? Bonkers.

And that's from someone who is not ashamed to say he thought both Reagan and Thatcher were, on the whole, good news so don't give me any nonsense about leftist agendas.

Edit

OT, I read in the papers this morning that people are upset that someone in the States has printed a load of T shirts reading "I looted New Orleans and all I got was 30 of these lousy T shirts"

Obviously I am a sick person because I thought that was quite funny, myself.

[lars573]

Edit

OT, I read in the papers this morning that people are upset that someone in the States has printed a load of T shirts reading "I looted New Orleans and all I got was 30 of these lousy T shirts"

Obviously I am a sick person because I thought that was quite funny, myself.

That is funny.

[Adrian II]

Adrian I really don't see how this has anything to do with big government versus small government. It has everything to with bad government however.

Exactly. I never pleaded for big government in the first place. And doubling the size of a bad government is probably not going to make it much better (or worse, for that matter).

What is essential is peoples' notion of the nature and extent of the common good that a government is supposed to safeguard and enhance. If this notion is minimalist, the end result is a minimal government (a government that leaves children behind, so to speak).

[KukriKhan]

In one of these threads, someone asked, what was the free market solution to rebuilding NO. By a curious coincidence, (the Org asks, the BBC answers)...

- English Assassin

Yeah, that keeps happening. Adrian II, in Post #34 in this thread trots out the Louisiana State Emergency Action Plan, quoting the relevant evacuation bits. 3 hours later, Bryan Jennings, anchorman for NBC News, uses the same document and references the same entries in his analysis of "what (might have) went wrong". Eerie.

Meanwhile, in an obviously clerical error that would be comedic, where lives not at stake: FEMA sends evac's to wrong city

[Adrian II]

Meanwhile, in an obviously clerical error that would be comedic, where lives not at stake: FEMA sends evac's to wrong city

Happens to the best of us. The Herald Trib has a decent article today (originally from the new York Times I believe) about Dutch coastal defences. What it smoothes over (for lack of space) is the total screw-up during the Dutch flooding disaster in 1953. But what it mentions is that nature is always full of surprises and rarely follows a man-made scenario.Now we have decent defenses, but it took us a while. We were the ones who invented dykes and polders, right? So we reckoned in 1953 that the nation was prepared for a major hurricane + high tide. Yeah right...