Correction, the movie being made is based off of Frank Millers graphic novel '300'.
As an aside, how in the hell does one edit ones post?, did they remove the edit button or something because I'm pretty sure thre used to be one???
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
Correction, the movie being made is based off of Frank Millers graphic novel '300'.
As an aside, how in the hell does one edit ones post?, did they remove the edit button or something because I'm pretty sure thre used to be one???
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
No way could Darius forces be that big. Don't trust ancient historian's numbers or modern historians that go by their numbers. 100,000 is quite unlikely, 500,000 is impossible.Originally Posted by jerby
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
But why? We know the Persians had, at that time, the biggest army in the world. We know they were extremely good with logistics. We know they needed a double bridge made of ships to get the army to Europe. We know that they had problems keeping it together. We know that they conquered Thrace only to organise supplies. We know that they needed a whole fleet to supply their army. We know that they had the resources both in recruits as in gold to support it.
Coupled with quite a few ancient historians talking about numbers in the millions, wich are probably overestimated, but still; it get's pretty likely the army was unusual huge, and that 100,000 would be small, while 500,000 is topping it, but still possible. Further more, it could be that many thousands were non-combatans, getting the score even higher. Lastly, the Persians in battle used massed, but weak infantry forces, mostly archers, backed by the 10,000(!) elite immortals and powerful cavalry. With such a strategy it is not unlikely for the immortals to be 10%, most certainly less, of the total army, making 100,000 nearly a given. One could argue that the Persian army (because of the difficulty of accepting high numbers) consisted almost only of immortals and cavalry, but that seems to me to be extremely unlikely.
Just saying that ancient historians are unreliable is easy, but getting proof is nearly impossible. Neither can I proof they used such massive armies, but I can show you that it is possible and likely. If I may ask, what are the reasons modern historians have for ignoring Herodotus when he comes with numbers, and why are they so sure that the actual number is only in the tens of thousands?
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(Or, as the Prussians interpretated it:
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Austria will one day be lowest in the world.)
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Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
You have to understand ancient logistics. The largest army ever fielded by Rome was 80,000 men. Even this army, in home territory, was notoriously under-supplied. This is with the Roman supply system and the relatively lush terrain of italy. There is simply no way that they could have fielded such an army.
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Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
Persian infantry did not suck. It was different. They were excellent archers and skirmishers. The whole Iranian foot soldiers suck isn't true, they are just different style from Greeks and Romans.
And Urnamma explained it excellently, it is he who helped me realize how impossible large armies were.
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
Wow interesting i always fought that Thebans stayed with Spartans to fight to the end. And this site says it was Thespians, and Thebans defected to persians ... interesting.
I must agree with Urnamma there is no way that 500000 strong army can support itself. I mean few trains a day could do the trick but they where in short supply back then i guess.
Did you read about polish cavalry charge at Samosierra passage in 1808 November 30?The only reason I commented on this thread was because I despise stories of a vastly outnumbered force overcoming the odds and defeating, or at least nearly defeating, the enemy.
You would love it :)
Squadron of cavalry (supported by other cavalry units including Napoleon personal quards) routed whole Spanish army. It was much better then RTW chain routs. But yea the casualties where terrible.
Last edited by LorDBulA; 09-07-2005 at 18:16.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
Just some things to keep in mind...
It's not that the ancient historians are unreliable. It is just unreliable to take anything for granted without analizying the context in which it was created.
Just like anything else, to do a good analisis of history. An historian (and every other scientist for that matter) has to always keep in mind who wrote it? Why he wronte it? What were his agendas?o whom he Twas writing...etc...etc..etc.
In this particular case, you always want to keep in mind that this was written by Greeks, for Greeks to read.
I once did a paper analysing the differences between the history of the War of Paraguay written in Brazil and the history of this same war written in Paraguay. For brazilian historians, it was a great war, full of remarkable heroes and generals, memorable battles and of course it was a war agains the tirany of enemy of freedom. In Paraguay the history of that war is very different. It was unfair, uncalled for. A total genocide.
In the end are any of those sides wrong? No, they just cannot be understood out of the context.
Not agreeing with any scientific fact doesn't mean that you are ignoring it. In fact there is no way to disagree and ignore at the same time. To disagree you have to take what you are disagreeing with into consideration.
Worshiper of therother.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
Historians aren't scientists.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
You have to understand ancient logisticsBut no historian said it was. The Persian army was depending on its fleet for supply. That was the whole point of Themistocles' strategy: without the fleet Persia could not support an army large enough to defeat the size of army that the Greeks could field.I must agree with Urnamma there is no way that 500000 strong army can support itself. I mean few trains a day could do the trick but they where in short supply back then i guess.
The 5th century Greeks were hardly at the forefront of ancient logistics, but managed to field a fleet the required something like 60,000 men. A million man army, or 500,000 sure exaggerations. But I don't have difficulty believing Persia, the largest, wealthiest empire on the planet could organize a 100,000 plus army. Republican Rome of circa 200 BC is simply not a good comparison, the Republic did not have the kind of administrative experience that the Persian had, or the Roman Empire would have.
'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird'
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
[QUOTE=Urnamma] The largest army ever fielded by Rome was 80,000 men.
At a single battle !
The Romans had 28 Legions in the Augustan age -
28 * 5,500 infantry = 154,000
28 * 300 cavalry = 8,400
28 * 5,500 Allies infantry = 154,000
9 Praetorians Cohors * 1,000 - 9,000
3 Vigilum Cohors * 1,000 = 3,000
6 Urban Cohors * 1,000 = 6,000
The Classis (navy) = 10,000
Sum = 344,400 soldiers !!! at any time
In the civil wars the number was higher , so yes , if the Romans could have done it , so the Persians .
"The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .
"Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
No, they couldn't have. Persia probably had more troops than most places, because of the large amount of land they owned, and the quality troops they recruited from those lands.
But they could never have all those soldiers in one place, probably not even in one satrapy. That would be impossible.
But no historian said it was. The Persian army was depending on its fleet for supply. That was the whole point of Themistocles' strategy: without the fleet Persia could not support an army large enough to defeat the size of army that the Greeks could field.And where did you get the army figures? From Greek historians.The 5th century Greeks were hardly at the forefront of ancient logistics, but managed to field a fleet the required something like 60,000 men. A million man army, or 500,000 sure exaggerations. But I don't have difficulty believing Persia, the largest, wealthiest empire on the planet could organize a 100,000 plus army. Republican Rome of circa 200 BC is simply not a good comparison, the Republic did not have the kind of administrative experience that the Persian had, or the Roman Empire would have.
And where do you get those numbers? From Roman historians.At a single battle !
The Romans had 28 Legions in the Augustan age -
28 * 5,500 infantry = 154,000
28 * 300 cavalry = 8,400
28 * 5,500 Allies infantry = 154,000
9 Praetorians Cohors * 1,000 - 9,000
3 Vigilum Cohors * 1,000 = 3,000
6 Urban Cohors * 1,000 = 6,000
The Classis (navy) = 10,000
Sum = 344,400 soldiers !!! at any time
In the civil wars the number was higher , so yes , if the Romans could have done it , so the Persians .
You can't believe historians. Almost all were not soldiers, and they either inflate the numbers to give props for their size for being so powerful, or inflate the enemies to make a victory more impressive, or to explain away a defeat.
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
From what I know of the battle of Thermopylae, holding up the Persians was a valuable thing, it wasn't as if the Spartans were needlessly used as 'cannon fodder'. Their sacrifice shouldn't be dishonoured, there are many other examples throughout history where I could draw an analogy, take the battle of britain speech 'so few' by Churchill for example to show how the actions of a small fraction of a nations armed forces can have such a deep impact.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
[QUOTE=caesar44]well yeah..that;s what i said, that's what meatwad agrees.
the romans didn't use any kind of strategy..just a large block of men+little cav at teh sides. Hannibals 'trap' was nice, but had the romans 'echeloned' or even a mainple, that would have bene almost enough..
versus a more capabale general hannibal would have lost a lot more men, or even lost...
sorry for getting off-topic on my own topic.
about teh numbers Ceaser stated on teh roman unit-count. It might have been teh real numbers, but of of 1 army in 1 place.. but 'all' soldiers scattered abotu Italy.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
In addition, few legions or armies are ever exactly their proper strength. It's often more of a guidline, due to deaths, deserstions and lack of soldiers.
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
Well they werent really left to be slaughtered at all, they decided to stay. What the spartans achieved at Thermopylae was to slow down the persians for a short time allowing the other greek cities to prepare and also the effect those 300 had on the persians was to completely destroy their moral, They were an army used to easy victory but had been stopped in their tracks by a miniscule force. As to bringing up auxiliars etc. it would have been a senseless waste of life, once the spartans were outflanked there was no way to defeat the persians, there was simply too many of them. As to glorifying the death of the 300, why not? they died for what they believed, they were following a code of honour that had been instilled in them since birth. Remember, it was the code the produced these amazing fighters in the first place
"Wishazu does his usual hero thing and slices all the zombies to death, wiping out yet another horde." - Askthepizzaguy, Resident Evil: Dark Falls
"Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical"
Sun Tzu the Art of War
Blue eyes for our samurai
Red blood for his sword
Your ronin days are over
For your home is now the Org
By Gregoshi
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
jup, 'the code' gives, and teh code takes it away
also the 'records' state that the army of 300 killed about 5000 men (1:20 was given by one historian, 1:10 by another, i think this is a reasonable number). so make up for yourself if it was futile. maybe they could have killed more in a full army, at plateae perhaps.
it's all a mix of honor, training, codes and a prophesy "Sparta will lose a king or their city" was about it.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
The Spartans and Thebans were ordered to stay as a vanguard at thermopylai by Leonidas,after the Creeks found out that the persians were encircling them.The Thespians refused to leave with other Creeks and stayed with Spartans and Thebans.
Herodotos claims that the Thebans surrendered during the battle and after that the Spartans and Thespians were surrounded on a hill and killed by javelins and arrows.Here is a link with some maps and a photograph of the supposed hill of the last stand of the Spartans.
Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
I totally agree with Wishazu, who knows maybe if the greeks hadn't been able to muster their armies in time, and suffered a little bad luck, maybe the gateway to europe could have been smashed open by the Persians. I think we owe alot to the ancient greeks, europe could have been a very different place.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
And that would have been bad, if the Persians had won?
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
i think it would be bad, after the greeks who could have stopped them deciding they were going to push on through the western med. World history would be totally different. Definately none of us would be here to debate the matter :)
"Wishazu does his usual hero thing and slices all the zombies to death, wiping out yet another horde." - Askthepizzaguy, Resident Evil: Dark Falls
"Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical"
Sun Tzu the Art of War
Blue eyes for our samurai
Red blood for his sword
Your ronin days are over
For your home is now the Org
By Gregoshi
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
Why not? Persians weren't in the practice of decimating local populations, and I'm not sure how large their empire could have extended without splintering off anyway.
But I digress.
"But if you should fall you fall alone,
If you should stand then who's to guide you?
If I knew the way I would take you home."
Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
No comedies. Forgetting about all the other stuff they did, just the ability to make fun of your equals and the most powerful men in your state and your religion in a sometime erudite and sometime crass way is enough for me to be thankful.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
greece was at a point completely conquered, by the romans. still alot of ancient greek thought were kept. how woudl this be different? empires coem and go, greece wasn't a constant...the renaissance reintroduced them to us, this woudl porbably have happened as well when teh persians conquered it.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
The Theban sacred band were destroyed at the battle of Chaeronea in august 338bc. Im not sure they were even in existence at the time of the persian wars. Anyways you have Alexander the Great and his father, Phillip the One Eye to thank for the Sacred Bands destruction.
"Wishazu does his usual hero thing and slices all the zombies to death, wiping out yet another horde." - Askthepizzaguy, Resident Evil: Dark Falls
"Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical"
Sun Tzu the Art of War
Blue eyes for our samurai
Red blood for his sword
Your ronin days are over
For your home is now the Org
By Gregoshi
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
thats not really a decent comparison, Persia and Rome were two completely different Cultures. The romans didnt really preserve Greek thought, they were practically Greek themselves. In fact its probably more correct to refer to Roman culture as Greaco-Roman. Anyways its all ancient history
"Wishazu does his usual hero thing and slices all the zombies to death, wiping out yet another horde." - Askthepizzaguy, Resident Evil: Dark Falls
"Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical"
Sun Tzu the Art of War
Blue eyes for our samurai
Red blood for his sword
Your ronin days are over
For your home is now the Org
By Gregoshi
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
Nope, they were formed in the early 4th century. Thebes was in fact picking up on an ideal that the Argives had pioneered in the last quarter of the 5th century. Around that time the Argives had created a 1000 man force of professional hoplites. Like the Sacred Band they were intended to be used as a spearhead force that could defeat the Spartan Equals.Im not sure they were even in existence at the time of the persian wars
'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird'
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we lie
About Gaugamela, it seems, according to sources, that the things were really balanced, and even inclining to the Achemenid Persian's side, when Alexander remembered his Issos actions, and made a risky but decisive movement, again trying to behead the Persian side by directly conducting a convergent attack against Darius and his guard, who was again present at the battle in a by then exposed situation.
Remember that in Issos, Alexander's companions saved the day by managing to break thru Darius's bodyguard and even wounding his auriga, forcing the Great King to flee and leave the field in a rush. In the confusion, most Persian troops thought their king was dead or wounded, which, joined to the fact that many Persian contingents were formed by levied and demotivated yet troops, signified a huge impact on Persian morale and inclined the battle to Macedonian side, after a Persian massive rout. That's how's depicted in that Pompeia mosaique.
In Gaugamela, things seemed to happen in a rather similar way, with a Persian army trying timid and irresolutive actions, whilst Macedonians fought in a much more dinamic and agressive way.
No obstant, I also doubt the exorbitating numbers of ancient propaganda.
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
Thanks for clearing that up mate. The Argive Thousand were all Aristocrats that came to prominence during the Peloponnesian War where they fought alongside and sometimes against the Spartans i believe.
"Wishazu does his usual hero thing and slices all the zombies to death, wiping out yet another horde." - Askthepizzaguy, Resident Evil: Dark Falls
"Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical"
Sun Tzu the Art of War
Blue eyes for our samurai
Red blood for his sword
Your ronin days are over
For your home is now the Org
By Gregoshi
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
Do you have any warning levels?
Re: Go tell the spartans, strangers passing by, that here obedient to there laws we l
Two
If thats the cause then its fairly dumb, whats the hell is the reasoning behind that? all its going to do is increase my postcount as I need to post more replies in order to correct any mistakes I may have made in earlier ones.
----------------------
Anyway on topic as regards the size of the Persian host, Herodotus I believe estimated the size of the Persian host going by how many generals it had, one historian I've read has suggested that amongst other things Herodotus misunderstood the Persian army's divisional system i.e. how many troops were under each generals command. The Persians worked on a decimal system and so Herodotus probably unintentionally added an extra '0' for the Persian numbers, thus we should detract that zero (which leaves us with an initial Persian invasion army of around 300,000 men which is perfectly reasonable I think.
About 20,000 of these were killed at Thermopylae, leaving him with around 280,000 men. After Salamis the Persian supply train by sea was no longer safe and the bad weather season was also coming. This made Xerxes supply situation untenable in enemy territory with such a large number of troops. Also after news of the Greek victory at Salamis reached the empire the threat of unrest and revolts back in Persia neccessitated Xerxes' return with much of the army. So keeping these things in mind Xerxes withdrew to Persia taking the bulk of his troops with him (mostly levee troops in any case) and leaving the cream of his army behind under Mardonius to complete the invasion.
Mardonius probably had a bit over 30,000 men with him mostly ethnic Persians who could be relied upon, he was later joined by Artabazus with 6,000 other handpicked Persians who had just finished escorting Xerxes back to the Hellespont (and who trashed the Cheronese region on their way back). This army was still enormous as far as traditional Greek armies were concerned, but it could also be maintained in Greece with the aid of local Persian allies (Boetia and Thebes) far longer without the need for a vulnerable naval supply train.
It was this army along with the armies of Xerxes Greek allies (mainly Boetia and Thebes) who fought the Greek Alliance at Platea.
At Platea the Spartans alone managed to field an army of around 40,000, mainly Helots and subject allies but including 5,000 Spartiate citizens (seven for each Spartan). They brought so many Helots as much as to get them out of Laconia so they couldn't cause any trouble in the absence of the bulk of the Spartan army as for the help they would bring in battle
The Boetians and especially the Thebans can also have been expected to have provided many troops as they had made their cause strogly with the Persians and would suffer if it failed. The King of Macedon was also at the battle so Macedon too would have contributed troops as would have other northern Greek city states, Mardonius's army also probably had around if not more than 100,000 men.
So thats 200,000 men under arms in a small area of Greece with neither side recieving supplies by sea.
I think 300,000 for the initial Persian Host a Host raised by an empire of many millions with troops drawn all the way from India to Ethiopia to Thrace and which initially had naval superiority is perfectly reasonable.
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