The Who vs. Led Zeppelin

[PanzerJaeger]

JPJ vs Entwistle is debatable, but you cannot say Entwistle is a better musician than JPJ. Besides being an excellent writer and producer, I believe JPJ could play just about any key-type instrument and several different string instruments aswell. Some of his solos on No Quarter are amazingly intricate.

To be honest, Im sure JPJ could play anything Entwistle could, but Zeps music focused a lot more on Page's guitar, with some exceptions.

Bonzo was just the greatest.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

To be honest, Im sure JPJ could play anything Entwistle could,

Bull. He wasnt even considered a great bass player. In fact they didnt even feel he was needed on their later tours and replaced him.

but you cannot say Entwistle is a better musician than JPJ

I can and shall continue to do so.

I believe JPJ could play just about any key-type instrument and several different string instruments aswell.

Same with Entwistle and he played brass instruments also.

How many albums of original stuff has JPJ got?

Bonzo was just the greatest.

Not even close. No rock and roll musicians are the best at the instrument they play. Not on Guitar, drums, keyboads,bass or anything else. That includes the Who and the Beatles Floyd or any others as well. You want the best look at Zappa or fusion bands. Are you going to tell me Bonzo is better than Lenny White or Terry Bozio?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Out of the drummers who palyed with Zappa, Vinnie Coliuta is my favourite. That guy can play.

[ichi]

Top all-time, best-selling bands, based on U.S. album sales (in millions):

1. The Beatles 163.5
2. Led Zeppelin 103.5
3. Eagles 83.5
4. Pink Floyd 68.5
5. AC/DC 63.0
6. Aerosmith 59.5
7. The Rolling Stones 53.5
8. Van Halen 50.5
9. Metallica 48.0
10. Fleetwood Mac 46.0

*Recording Industry Association of America


The Who come in at 20.0 million, ahead of the Monkees and the Grateful Dead, but behind Jimi Hendrix and Barry Manilow

ichi

[Aenlic]

For drummers, I'd say that Carl Palmer is the best technical drummer in rock.

Overall, for sheer skill and talent, the late Elvin Jones who was drummer in the Coltrane Quartet takes the ultimate prize for best in any genre of music, I think.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

For drummers, I'd say that Carl Palmer is the best technical drummer in rock.

Overall, for sheer skill and talent, the late Elvin Jones who was drummer in the Coltrane Quartet takes the ultimate prize for best in any genre of music, I think.

Woo, an ELP fan. Yes, Palmer does rule. That whole band were astonishing-I'm always amazed by how well Greg Lake can sing, how well he can play bass, and how he can do both at the same time.

As far as good rock drummers go, I'd also advance Neil Peart's name. The best drummers are in Jazz or fusion though. Some of those guys are just sensational-Buddy Rich, for example. He was a bit of a Prima Donna, mind.

[Steppe Merc]

I would hardly say that there is 'no question' about it. Vocals are an entirely subjective thing, personally I feel that Geddy Lee has the best voice in rock music (I know he sounds like a girl, so sue me). Whilst Page was undeniably a superior lead guitarist, Townshend is scarily good where rhythm playing is concerned. Entwhistle was a truly remarkable bass player, and I would rate him higher than Jones, personally, whilst Bonham versus Moon is, in my opinion, too close to call, with Bonham's superior technical playing butting heads against Moon's explosive and insane fills.

Ok, saying no question was not fair. It would be more fair if you look at them all one on one. But Zeppelin as a whole is better than Who as a whole, IMHO.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well all I can say is that for My Generation(pun intended) those who were around for the British invasion. The Who were far more respected and liked than Zepplin.We thought of it as kids music Like I said. I always liked them and for what they do they are certainly the best. But overall the WHO are the more talented band and have had a bigger effect on future bands than Zepplin ever did. The Who once more were pioneers and Zepplin just another heavy metal band. Well the best heavy metal band but the WHO were much more than that. Zepplin again is way overrated. If I ever hear Stairway to heaven again I think ILL puke.

Woo, an ELP fan. Yes, Palmer does rule. That whole band were astonishing-I'm always amazed by how well Greg Lake can sing, how well he can play bass, and how he can do both at the same time.

Yup they were great. I saw them a few times in the 70s. Unbelievable that all that sound comes from just three guys. I got a dvd of them in concert in 93 and they were still awsome.


And Ichi there is no doubt that Zepplin was more of a commercial succes than. If that were so a Chevy would be a better car than a Mercedes.

[Eaglefirst]

The talent in the band means nothing if the band doesn't focus around it. Page solos are crazy and are what separate zeppelin from the crowd. Still Zeppelin is overated. For whatever reason Zeppelin 4 (or Zoso or whatever fits your fancy) is known as a classic when it sucks. Zeppelin is best at blues. Zeppelin 1 is prime, 2 is money, 3 has a few moments, 4 sucks and the rest have filler that spoils the albums. The Who have many good albums and many excellent albums but because of who else was around at the time (Beatles and Stones in the mid sixties and Hendrix and Cream along with Floyd later in the late sixties) they get overshadowed. In the End the winner would have to be Zeppelin simply because I don't own too much of the who.

[Reverend Joe]

there is no doubt that Zepplin was more of a commercial succes than. If that were so a Chevy would be a better car than a Mercedes.

And The Eagles would be better than Floyd; but, at the risk of alienating some people here, "...I hate the ****in' eagles!" Good point there, Gawain.

[PanzerJaeger]

Bull. He wasnt even considered a great bass player. In fact they didnt even feel he was needed on their later tours and replaced him.

Really, thats news to me. When did Zep replace JPJ?

How many albums of original stuff has JPJ got?

More than you would think. He was the inspiration for a lot of Zep songs - plus hes produced since the break up.

Not even close. No rock and roll musicians are the best at the instrument they play. Not on Guitar, drums, keyboads,bass or anything else. That includes the Who and the Beatles Floyd or any others as well. You want the best look at Zappa or fusion bands. Are you going to tell me Bonzo is better than Lenny White or Terry Bozio?

Fusion is so overrated. Almost as overrated as Zappa.

The Who were far more respected and liked than Zepplin.We thought of it as kids music

Why did Zep far outshow the Who in concerts? Isnt that the real measure of how many people of that time respected the band? Zep had the biggest concerts since the Beatles.

But overall the WHO are the more talented band and have had a bigger effect on future bands than Zepplin ever did.

Thats why heavy metal took off like it did? Zeppelin is the grandfather of heavy metal.

Zepplin again is way overrated.

According to who? The people who sold out their concerts or the people who put them second to the beatles? They simply had better music. You can blame that on "commercialness", but isnt that a measure of how good music is.. how many people spend their hard earned money on it. Its not as if the Who werent trying to be as successful as Zep. Townshend continually talks about how the Who werent what he wanted them to be.

Now it can be argued back and forth who had the best members talent wise, but Zep managed to combine their talent better than The Who. So there..

[Quietus]

The best drummer IMO would be Carlton Barrett and along with his bassist brother Aston Barrett, the best rhythm section ever. Dennis Bovell is bass god as well equal to Aston.

Here's a subjective list of (basically the most influential/popular, not necessarily the greatest) rhythm sections ever:

The 25 Greatest Rhythm Sections of All Time

Our criteria? A few basic questions. Did they leave an indelible mark? Has their music endured? And ultimately, did they spark a movement that fundamentally changed the way a particular style of music was played?

[Quietus]

And Ichi there is no doubt that Zepplin was more of a commercial succes than. If that were so a Chevy would be a better car than a Mercedes.

If talent always equal popularity, Burning Spear and Linton Kwesi Johnson (backed by the Dennis Bovell Dub Band) would be popular.

[PanzerJaeger]

Hey awesome. JPJ and Bonham made it on the list before Cream and The Hendrix Experience's rhythm sections.

11. John Bonham & John Paul Jones. Led Zeppelin's famous drummer and bassist have withstood the test of time with a reputation of being so much more than metal prototypes. A session player for years before becoming a founding member of Led Zeppelin, Jones was the picture of studio perfection, devising tasteful bass lines that lent legitimacy to the band's sound. Bonham was a bruiser. He didn't play drums faster than his peers, but certainly played them much harder. While his big drum sound and style has always been easy to identify, Bonham possessed an inventiveness that enriched every performance with its own personality. Their combined heaviness (mixed with lots of finesse) was awesome.

[Aenlic]

Woo, an ELP fan. Yes, Palmer does rule. That whole band were astonishing-I'm always amazed by how well Greg Lake can sing, how well he can play bass, and how he can do both at the same time.

As far as good rock drummers go, I'd also advance Neil Peart's name. The best drummers are in Jazz or fusion though. Some of those guys are just sensational-Buddy Rich, for example. He was a bit of a Prima Donna, mind.

I'll agree on Peart being up there. I'm not a real big fan of Rush, liking the older stuff better.

Heh, Buddy Rich. I used to stay up late when I was a kid and watch him whenever he was going to be on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. He was always a riot. Jazz has lots of incredible drummers. Alex Acuña with Weather Report, Lenny White with Return to Forever and of course, Billy Cobham with McLaughlin's Mahavishnu Orchestra. Man, I could go on forever about jazz.

As for best voice in rock, I think that has to go to Chris Cornell.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Hey awesome. JPJ and Bonham made it on the list before Cream and The Hendrix Experience's rhythm sections.

What list is this? Maybe a hint would help.

Really, thats news to me. When did Zep replace JPJ?

When they went on tour after Bonzo died. The also formed Page and Plant . No JPJ there.

More than you would think. He was the inspiration for a lot of Zep songs - plus hes produced since the break up.

I dont know one solo song of his but I know plenty by Entwistle. Please name one we would all know.

Fusion is so overrated. Almost as overrated as Zappa

Your still young. You still have time to learn musical appreciation

Why did Zep far outshow the Who in concerts? Isnt that the real measure of how many people of that time respected the band? Zep had the biggest concerts since the Beatles.

Everyone has had bigger concerts than the Beatles. And no thats not the real measure of how many people respect the band. Ive seen both in concert a few times and the Zep was medicore at best as Plants voice was already shot in the 70s. The Whos 10th aniversary concert was without a doubt one of the greatest Ive ever seen.

Thats why heavy metal took off like it did? Zeppelin is the grandfather of heavy metal.

No the Who are. Who came first?

Now it can be argued back and forth who had the best members talent wise, but Zep managed to combine their talent better than The Who. So there..

No they didnt so there. Zepplin like most groups got worse with almost every album where as the Who got better. As far as lyrics go they suck major wind
Its the Who that are more influential to those who followed, Zepplin being one of them. And that is the true measure of how good a group was. The Who even beat floyd to using major sythns in their music. They went where no one else had ever gone before.

[Quietus]

Here's another subjective list:

Best Rock Bassists

[doc_bean]

When they went on tour after Bonzo died. The also formed Page and Plant . No JPJ there.

I think they were afraid of reforming LZ without Bonham, which is what Page, Plant & Jones would have been.

[Reverend Joe]

I just want to mention something about Zeppelin borrowing/stealing other songs: everyone does that. For example:

Before I bought Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (so far my only Beatles album), I was always puzzled by a line in "Let There Be More Light", from Saucerful of Secrets: "The outer lock rolled slowly back, the servicemen were heard to sigh/ For there revealed in flowing robes was Lucy in the Sky". I could tell it was a wierd song about a psychedelic UFO landing, but why Lucy? Then I bought Sgt. Pepper- and there it was: "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds".

It happens all the time.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Before I bought Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (so far my only Beatles album), I was always puzzled by a line in "Let There Be More Light", from Saucerful of Secrets: "The outer lock rolled slowly back, the servicemen were heard to sigh/ For there revealed in flowing robes was Lucy in the Sky". I could tell it was a wierd song about a psychedelic UFO landing, but why Lucy? Then I bought Sgt. Pepper- and there it was: "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds".

Thats not stealing their music How many songs have the same name for crying out loud and these arent even the same. Zep did a lot of other peoples material. Even alot of the stuff that they get credit for writting were really offshoots of old blues songs. George Harrisons My Sweet Lord is an example of this sort of thing and he got sued for it and lost.

[English assassin]

Zeppelin is the grandfather of heavy metal.

Zeppelin is heavy rock. So is the Who. Heavy Metal begins with Black Sabbath, developed with Judas Priest and reached its full early flowering with the NWOBHM. It has no grandparents. This is just a fact. You'll be calling Deep Purple heavy metal at this rate.

I would just like to take this rare opportunity to say I agree with everything Big G is saying in this thread and y'all should listen to him. Except where he calls Led Zep a heavy metal band.

[Aenlic]

Actually, I must disagree! If only because one of the original members of Blue Öyster Cult is a buddy of mine.

The term heavy metal music was first used by Sandy Pearlman when he was writing articles as a rock music critic for the great Crawdaddy! magazine in 1967.

It was Pearlman, in his association with Blue Öyster Cult, producing and writing much of their music that really started heavy metal music - called heavy metal music, anyway. Since Pearlman coined the term, and produced the music and wrote many of the songs for BÖC. I must say that he was the genesis of heavy metal.

Incidentally, Sandy Pearlman later managed Black Sabbath for a while, and the two bands did a tour together called the Black and Blue tour.

[English assassin]

Heresy !! Heavy Metal comes from Birmingham ! (Not that I seriously want to take this argument too far, since presumably your buddy knows what he did when. Although come ti think of it Ozzy doesn't)

At work I have been forced to rely on Wiki, which reminds me that both Black Sabbath and Paranoid were released in 1970 but claims that Blue Oyster Cult was only released in 72. (both bands had been around since the 60s under different names I grant you) Mind you Wiki has this gem about Blue Oyster Cult:

They became a successful heavy metal band during the 1970s. At a time when the genre seemed tired and old-fashioned, Blue Öyster Cult released records that combined powerful music and intelligent and funny lyrics

Riiiight. So the genius who wrote that thinks that heavy metal was "tired and old fashioned" in the 1970s does he? The same 1970s that in fact saw the birth of the genre and the best work by the great original bands, culminating in the new wave at the end of the decade?

I suspect whoever wrote that can't tell the difference between an umlaut and his arse.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Except where he calls Led Zep a heavy metal band.

Well I really dont consider them that. They were a logical progression from groups like the Who and Cream. Heavy metal did indeed start with Sabbath but its roots lay with the Who . In the end it all goes back to some poor Black musicians playing blues in th South though.

Actually, I must disagree! If only because one of the original members of Blue Öyster Cult is a buddy of mine

Then you should now it was started by the Soft white underbelly then. I used to go see them in the local clubs here on LI back in the early 70s. They indeed came before Sabbath but were no where near as influential. (as far as the public goes) By the way their home base was near Stonybrook college. Thats the one I now work for. Its a lot like the Who and Zepplin. SWU indeed started it all but Sabbath is the band they all remember.

[Reverend Joe]

Thats not stealing their music

I guess not... I just thought that was an amusing story- that the Aliens in "Let There Be More Light" were all on acid.

It would explain Abokasee.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh back to who satarted it all. It was Blue Cheer like I originally said.

The first was the advent of loud, distorted blues, which was pioneered by a mess of a band called Blue Cheer, who made braying, droning, grinding blues rock with the aid of deformed amplifiers and a passion for crudity. They were the vanguard of a range of electric blues bands from Cream to Jimi Hendrix to ZZ Top, and inspired much of the loud rock which followed, including proto-punk-rockers the Kinks and the Who. Much can be said about these bands, but what is most important is that they took the traditions of folk and blues improvisation and turned them into something technically on par with the jazz and big band acts of the day, adding guitar fireworks and lengthy songs to a genre that was otherwise strictly radio-play ditties.

The second tine of the fork was progressive rock, which in 1968 found its most extreme act in King Crimson, but which truly flowered during the early middle 1970s. Arguably, this genre was given impetus by a band overmentioned in any history of popular music because they were among the first to leave standard rock format, overcoming its novelty, namely, the Beatles. Their work was one of many that allowed bands to mix classical and jazz training into their rock, resulting in longer song structures, many of which were narrative or neo-operatic (Camel, Genesis, Yes) and the use of distortion and dissonance in artful ways. While these bands ultimately choked on their own "virtuosity," being nestled in a genre that could barely appreciate them but not reaching the level of complexity of classical works (in part because of a need to service the unending drumbeats and syncopated rhythms common to rock), they lived on in contributions to other genres.

Finally, there was a tradition of bands who grew from the surf and garage rock traditions into a technique-oriented neo-proto-punk-rock format, beginning with half-American Indian guitarist Link Wray and leading through surf guitar champion Dick Dale, both of whom were users of distortion. Psychedelic bands such as the 13th Floor Elevators and semi-punkers like Love and The Trees are worth mentioning here, but these bands had a foot as well in inspiration from the first dark rock band to exist, the Doors. Where other rock bands had focused on love or peace, the Doors brought a Nietzsche-inspired morbid subconscious psychedelia to rock music, and were the origins of much of the neo-Romanticism which later bloomed into metal, as well as many of the more inspired moments of progressive and punk rock.

By 1969, the influence of these artists had saturated the forms of public consciousness which were focused on rock music as a developing artform, and contributed to the explosion of hard rock (Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple) and proto-metal (Black Sabbath), both of which occurred simultaneously to the development of distorted, power-chord based technical music from King Crimson. This year was thus the watershed for loud forms of rock, as it started three threads which would run concurrently during the 1970s and hybridize in the next decade.

So you seee Zep was not the pioneer of this type of music in any way shape or form. In fact they were just about the last ones on the scene. Please remember people I have one major advantage over most of you. I actually lived through this stuff.

Historical View of Metal

[Steppe Merc]

LED ZEPPELIN IS NOT HEAVY METAL!!!

Damn it, they are nothing near metal. They have at least two aucostic songs per album, and one album totally aucostic! There is nothing metal about them!

[Aenlic]

Then you should now it was started by the Soft white underbelly then. I used to go see them in the local clubs here on LI back in the early 70s. They indeed came before Sabbath but were no where near as influential. (as far as the public goes) By the way their home base was near Stonybrook college. Thats the one I now work for. Its a lot like the Who and Zepplin. SWU indeed started it all but Sabbath is the band they all remember.

Very good! Sandy Pearlman was paying for his education at Stony Brook by writing for Crawdaddy!. That's how all of this comes together.

Donny Roeser ("Buck Dharma") and Albert Bouchard met while going to school at Clarkson College. The formed various bands at the time, like The Disciples and Travesty. Donny met Sandy and another critic and friend of Sandy's, Richard Meltzer. Another guy he regularly jammed with, John Wiesenthal, brought in Allen Lanier. and another friend of Donny's, Andy Winters. Pearlman named them Soft White Underbelly, and off they went. This was in late 1967, early 1968. At that same time, Black Sabbath was in its early stages too and called Earth, I believe, and playing blues-oriented rock. They opened, thanks to Sandy's connections, for Muddy Waters and the Grateful Dead. They hooked up with Les Braunstein, another guy at Stony Brook, as a lead singer. A friend of his, my buddy Eric Bloom, was in the local music scene, playing in various bands and he also had a lot of equipment and worked in a music store. So he started doing sound for the band. Right in the middle of making their first recording for Elektra, Braunstein quit. That's how Eric got involved as frontman. They convinced Elektra to record a new album with Eric singing, and changed their name to The Stalk-Forrest Group and went to California to record it. During the California trip, Winters was fired and Albert brought his brother Joe on board. Thus you have the original lineup which became BÖC. Eric, Donny, Allen, Joe and Albert. Elektra never released the album, they changed their name to BÖC and off they went, touring and playing from 1970-1971. But they didn't record and put out their first album until 1972, and Black Sabbath had already changed their name to its final form and put out their first album. So I will continue to claim, because of the association with Pearlman that BÖC and Pearlman were the genesis of heavy metal.

Hey, Gawain. The guys all still live on Long Island to this day. I didn't meet Eric until much later, thanks to a shared addiction to online gaming.

And you're right, Led Zep is not heavy metal. It is blues-rock.

Oh, and English Assassin! Wikipedia is a mess. Having articles written by just whomever means a lot of their information is inaccurate. Most of it is good, but not all. It's always a good idea to corroborate it with some other source.

[English assassin]

You know what? Suddenly, in these last few posts, the org (OK, the tavern) redeems itself.

And, Big G, you know that other post, where I said I had a grudging respect for you but I didn't know why? This is why.

Heavy metal did indeed start with Sabbath but its roots lay with the Who

Listen to the man, my Org friends.

But your politics still (mostly) suck.

Eric, Donny, Allen, Joe and Albert. Elektra never released the album, they changed their name to BÖC and off they went, touring and playing from 1970-1971. But they didn't record and put out their first album until 1972, and Black Sabbath had already changed their name to its final form and put out their first album. So I will continue to claim, because of the association with Pearlman that BÖC and Pearlman were the genesis of heavy metal.

Excellent. We are both right. The best sort of argument.

Oh, and English Assassin! Wikipedia is a mess. Having articles written by just whomever means a lot of their information is inaccurate. Most of it is good, but not all. It's always a good idea to corroborate it with some other source.

Yeah, I know. On the other hand my experience with ephemeral print media is that 100% of the information I know about is wrong. Wiki's not that bad. And at least with Wiki I can correct it. Briefly.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Excellent. We are both right. The best sort of argument.

Like many things they were being discovered shall we say on both sides of the Atlantic simutaleously.

And, Big G, you know that other post, where I said I had a grudging respect for you but I didn't know why? This is why.


Quote:
Heavy metal did indeed start with Sabbath but its roots lay with the Who



Listen to the man, my Org friends.


.

I like to think I know a bit about rock and roll. Ive been around since before its inception you know. Now thats a truly scary thought.