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Thread: Holy Roman Headache!

  1. #1
    Member Member Insigna's Avatar
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    Question Holy Roman Headache!

    Playing as the Holy Roman Empire on Hard every time I try to play defensively I manage to go to war with most of the world by trying to be peaceful. All my allies side with the first invader who attacks me then one by one they join in for the fun. Why don't my allies side with me. Why do I get warnings from the pope when I try to take back my provinces while they get in no trouble for taking mine. Why do they all hate me so much?

    So then I decide to be daring. I rush the Italians on the first turn. But I can't knock them of the continent before I am excommunicated and whalla everyone hates me again and all of the HRE wants to revolt. Is there a way to beat the Italina from the continent before excommunication? I can get so close by never quite make it.

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    Member Member Procrustes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    I'm in an HRE campagne right now - I left the Italians alone until they ended up in a war with the Pope - then I sent crusades against them and wiped them off the continent. Next I'm going to use the gothic knights I got from the crusades to take Rome and install a puppet pope.

  3. #3
    Flavius Claudius Julianus Member NodachiSam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    You can always try to assassinate the pope to eliminate excomunnications and keep him from coming back with an annoying number of men. I always take Rome sooner or later, it is just so symbolic
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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Insigna,

    I've not tried HRE for myself yet, at any level, but will attempt to reply based on things I've picked up from reading the threads on the forum. Thanks to all who thought these things up first.

    1) At the faction choice screen, did you notice the comment it makes about HRE being equivalent to one level of difficulty higher than the one selected?

    2) HRE probably has more neighbour factions than any other on the board, on turn one, so it's hard to NOT get sucked into wars you didn't really want. It also means lots of border provinces to guard simultaneously, which will demand lots of troops, or else try to make strategic gains which allow you to maintain a border with three decent armies instead of four slightly weak ones, for example.

    3) Get used to excommunication. It happens to the HRE a lot! Wait for your Emperor, or the Pope, to die of old age and it'll go away. Weather the storm in the meantime. Later on, you can have assassins with which to bump off old Popey when he gets to be a nuisance.

    4) Lose two provinces in one year and your king loses enough influence to drop generals' loyalties down to insurrection levels. If necessary, split all your stacks into single units so, if a high-starred general goes rebel, he doesn't take a whole stack of otherwise faithful troops with him, under his command.

    5) Don't suggest or accept alliances at all. If they do all the requesting, it's because they fear attack by you and want to be left alone (at least for long enough that they can tech up and clobber you). You then cannot initiate attacks on them - breaking the alliance - without being dishonoured, again impacting your king's influence which, in turn, impacts on loyalty at home.

    6) If you're the strongest faction in the game, then expect other factions to side with the one who initiates attacks on you. The little guys join together to take on the big guy.

    7) The fact that the AI is attacking you is a sign that it fancies its chances and relative sizes of attacker force versus garrison size has a big part to play in this, IMO. To play 'defensive', you're going to need defensive garrisons which are sufficiently fearsome, in terms of either troop numbers, troop quality (tech level), or both, to inhibit the AI factions from even making an attempt. To do this, you're going to need a strong economy, to train and pay the upkeep on these troops, yet still have enough positive cashflow for continued building upgrades. Defend your richest provinces as strongly as possible in the first few turns (maybe at the expense of one crummy province, if need be) and get farm improvements going right away. You may need to spam peasants early on, to repel invasions in the initial few turns using weight of numbers but, when cashflow gets squeezed by garrison sizes even with the benefit of 40% farms, gradually disband the peasant units as and when your sword units (FMAA) become available. The AI's chronic inability to do likewise will work in your favour, especially if they tried to keep pace with your early peasant output by building matching numbers of their own.

    8) Similarly in the interests of the economy, try to maintain at least one coastal province with tradeable goods and get some ships built. Later on, other factions won't be able to declare war on you without their own economy suffering from the effects of you blockading their ports.

    9) With regard to knocking out Italy totally before excommunication, it is doable but not on the timescale you're looking for. Basically, the papal warning gives you two years in which to complete a provincial conflict. Regard year zero as the year of the won battle and the warning being issued; year 1 is the year you either lay siege or comply by pulling out, year 2 is your last opportunity to break the siege by assault (make sure you win!) but it's too late to pull out because, at the time you press 'End Year' the province is still held by you and the sally/siege break action by the other side causes the province to change hands in the third year of the papal time limit. If you've won the province within the time limit, you have to wait a further 10 years before you can attack that faction again without risking immediate excom and the 2 year completion rule comes into force again, followed by another 10 years and so on....
    Yes it is slow going but every province you take off a neighbour faction inhibits their progress and enhances yours. While you're waiting, perhaps attack a second faction and get another warning - just keep track of all the various expiry dates!

    10) Faction re-emergences can sometimes bring 4-5 stacks of troops well above the quality of what you last beat into the ground using an army no bigger than one stack. It can pay to leave a faction with one last province, like a protectorate under your wing and work on doing the same to other factions. Treat the protectorate's army as being an extra defensive army holding the faction on the opposite border at bay. Save the coup de grace battles for the end-game, with the Papal faction being last to be knocked out. Otherwise the re-emergence may happen just a few years after you've finished the Italians but before you've built sufficient new troops to take on the next faction you had in mind.

    EYG

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    Sports Freak Member dgfred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Great post EYG . As you know I love the HRE . Probably the
    best bet for knocking the Italians off the continent is to prepare early. The
    best method I have found is to smack someone else first (Danes or French
    do nicely) and get your warning from the Pope- then tear into the Italians
    without worry from the Pope - this way you can take a couple of
    important provinces from the French or Danes to secure some $, then rid
    yourself of those pesky Italians. Just make sure you are in good defensive
    position on your other fronts. Hope this helps.
    PB-PL Commander/CC2 Commander/MTW Commander

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    Member Member danielrech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    As the HRE (early/hard) I always attack the Italians first, even if I always get excommunicated. Never had much trouble with that. If you re unsure about loyalty, just wait until the pope is on his 50's.
    "There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who know binaries and those who don't" - unknown source

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Good info EYG. And dgfred, you added exactly what I was thinking.

    Here’s my little HRE story.

    I recently finished my Spanish game, the toughest I ever played (self inflicted via stupidity ), and thought if I can do that I might be ready for the HRE (everyone says they are difficult but fun). So I give it a try early/expert/GA. I immediately see that my money will not go far so I decide to turtle a little and try to fortify my position. After about 4 turns a different opponent attacks me almost every turn for several years until I get the “you have the largest military” notice and they leave me alone, phew. My money is real tight and I take the opportunity to take out the Italians and get some quick cash from Venice. I take two provinces and get warned from the pope. Then get the “you have the most money” notice and get attacked by everyone again. There was no way I could have kicked the Italians off the mainland now so 10 years waiting was no big deal. I took back a lost province or two and then when my time was up I “booted” the Italians out, got warned and then used the warning to my advantage to kick the crap out of the French (weakened by the English) and Danes. On the up side I have a pretty established and safe boarder now but I have done barley any building other than farms. I have some great generals but I might be in trouble from other tech-advanced factions (my most advanced unit is the FMA and only because a French province I took had a swordsmith). Fun and uniquely challenging but the constant fighting is definitely not my style.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    I've only started with them successfully once, on expert. Keep your numbers up, learn small unit (army) tactics, and choose your battles. Sometimes you want them to invade so you can move an army to block their retreat and attack them in the same year. I grabbed a lot of land from France (I now border continental England) and wiped out Hungary quick when they attacked. When I last left the game I defeated a Danish invasion and the Poles attacked. Do what you can to shorten your front lines and make money in the core. Germany can be the beating heart of Europe with a little cardiovascular exercise .


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    Member Member lugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    I'm playing a HRE/Hard/Early at the moment.
    The one thing you have to get used to is getting excommed and suffering a lot of religious revolts as a result (fanatics hurt like hell when you only have feudal troops) especially if you're playing GA. The pope keeps raiding the peninsula since I showved him into the Papal states and took the rest for myself.
    One tactic that's borne fruit was building up a high valour emmisarry and assassin. The latter to kill the pope that excommed you and the former to speedily negotiate a ceasefire.
    Plus, if you keep him sweet, he'll gift you with gold when you take Prussia early on, and the Drang nach Osten is a money spinner for me at the moment since I've no fleet and am crusading my way to Livonia! Lots of heretics killed is giving me a thousand bonus every second turn.

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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Thanks for the compliments, guys, but I did stress that was a 'digest' of stuff I've picked up from other forum regulars. They know who they are!

    You were right to point out my mistake about Papal warnings. For the uninitiated, it's a minor glitch in the game that it can only keep track of one warning at a time. I forget if the pope warns you against attacking other Catholic factions, in general, or a named faction in particular.

    In theory, you can attack an unthreatening faction, such as the Danes, maybe even pull out afterwards without completing the province conquest, get the warning, then leave them alone. They should be sufficiently damaged to be unable to strike back for longer than 10 years. Meanwhile, you can go for broke against the faction you really wanted to knock out.

    With regard to item 8 on my list, I was forgetting that the AI is astonishingly bad at setting up its shipping routes, so you won't be blockading their trade as much as I suggested. You will, however, be in a position to prevent them making seaborne invasions and routine troop movements if they commence hostilities against you, by placing your ships in locations awkward for them.

    Both HRE and the Byzantines regard themselves as rightful successors to the ancient Roman empire, which makes them natural rivals. You might wish to confine your alliances to factions which will keep the Byz busy, like the Sicilians (who WILL back-stab you eventually, often beginning with a naval attack), Turks and Egyptians.

    After taking Venice, don't lay into the Hungarians too soon. You stand to gain many years' worth of trading income with them, as well as the Papal States and whoever holds Naples, using just one ship in the Adriatic. The extra income will allow you to steadily improve your farms in landlocked provinces and also kickstart your Baltic/North Sea trade routes, which will then enable you to invade Norway and Sweden without having to knock out the Danes first (remember what I said about tricky re-emergences?).

    For a time, you may even be able to trade with the Byzantines too. Ships around their coasts will let you monitor their progress without risking your agents against their assassins. If naval conflict starts you can break all ship contact and link the Adriatic to North Africa instead. Crusade against the Byz through Hungary, with the Huns either neutral or allied to you.

    I've been so preoccupied with multiplayer lately that my Byz campaign has ground to a halt. After dishing out all this advice, I'm sorely tempted to start a HRE campaign of my own, to see whether it's a workable strategy. Whether I'm up to scratch for "Hard+1" I don't know. Also I've yet to attempt GA, in either version of the game but it sounds entertaining and I might try that.

    EYG

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    Sports Freak Member dgfred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    @ yesdachi- Could you give us more details of your Spanish game?


    Your HRE game sounds very interesting too. I foresee many tough battles
    for you, especially with not much built. The constant fighting can be one
    of the drawbacks of playing the Germans, it is not really my style either .
    PB-PL Commander/CC2 Commander/MTW Commander

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    Sports Freak Member dgfred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    EYG- give the HRE a try on at least hard, maybe even expert -- we
    would love to tag along. The Byzantines have been a major head-
    ache for me in both my HRE game and my Egyptian game , they
    are quickly becoming my 'archrival' . In my HRE game I finally had to stomp
    them in Const., destroy some stuff of theirs, withdraw and then invade
    another nearby province such as Greece or Lesser Armenia. After about 10
    years of this they are weakened to the point of not really being able to
    defend themselves from others . I'm still working on my Egyptian stategy
    towards them .
    PB-PL Commander/CC2 Commander/MTW Commander

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Quote Originally Posted by dgfred
    @ yesdachi- Could you give us more details of your Spanish game?


    Your HRE game sounds very interesting too. I foresee many tough battles
    for you, especially with not much built. The constant fighting can be one
    of the drawbacks of playing the Germans, it is not really my style either .
    About my Spanish game...
    I may have mentioned it before but I basically had about 40% of the map and all was well then I got a lame king. The next in line was awesome so I sent my lame king to Ireland to “retire” he was captured and I refused the ransom and the awesome king took the crown. Sounds good so far . Well refusing the kings ransom freaked my people out and nearly every one of my provinces generated 3 stacks of bandits! I consolidated my forces into about 6 provinces and had to start taking back my land. I had lots of re-emerging factions late in the game too. The byz made a massive rally against me and with less than 20 years left I had the French, Danes and Hungarians all pop up.

    Also in my HRE game I don’t see the Byz anywhere?!? But the Turks are covering the east side of the map. I’m kind of excited about a good face off with the Turks I rarely get to fight them. Hope I have more than FMA’s by the time it happens.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

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    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Yeah, considering EYG's observation of the Italian situation, it's probably not worth worrying about the Pope's edicts, and simply bum-rush the Italians down to Tuscany. Playing tippy-toe with excommunication may just stagnate the Empire, getting you nowhere. The influence gained from blitzkrieg conquest can serve to counteract the big knock you take from excommunication. If you choose this option, though, I would suggest attacking the Italians and ONLY the Italians, and to actually accept offers of alliance from other factions.

    I guess what I'm saying, in a rambling kind of way, is any conflict with the Italians should be all-or-nothing.

    Of course, this all goes out the window in those weird campaigns where they have that "special" relationship with the Pope, and he calls for crusades against you within 3 or 4 years of your first assault against Italy. Kiss your empire goodbye if anyone buys a ticket to THAT show.

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Well, the HRE GA is to eventually conquer Rome. I'd attack through Italy and kill the Pope and then turn around and plow through the Italians again.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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    Sports Freak Member dgfred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    Well, the HRE GA is to eventually conquer Rome. I'd attack through Italy and kill the Pope and then turn around and plow through the Italians again.
    This is not too easy early in the game . I find it hard to fully
    attack anyone with HRE except for Danes and maybe France in the very early
    game, and still keep Poland, Hungary and Italians at bay . I usually
    try to leave the Pope alone for much of the game, by-passing his lands and
    using the attack one/get warning/smash another trick to avoid
    excommunication. The biggest problems I have with the Germans are:
    loyalty issues, defense on several fronts and excommunication- avoiding these usually means a victory .
    PB-PL Commander/CC2 Commander/MTW Commander

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    What I'd meant is that in a GA game, when you invade Italy, you shouldn't stop in Italy. Just go through and kill the pope and establish your HRE in three turns.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    What I'd meant is that in a GA game, when you invade Italy, you shouldn't stop in Italy. Just go through and kill the pope and establish your HRE in three turns.
    I presume you mean three turns from start to finish, not turn three of the game?

    I can't imagine what the effects of excom on turn two/three must be like when you have one (largely ineffectual) pez or UM unit per province, loyalty at 123%, with taxes already at Low or Very Low in most regions, most of your newest trained troops headed south for the fighting and your first new forts not yet completed!

    As for three turns, I assume that turn one is a triple attack on Milan, Genoa and Venice, turn 2 is Tuscany/Papal States and turn 3 is Rome (and/or Naples)?

    EYG

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    Flavius Claudius Julianus Member NodachiSam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    I wonder if you can use the attack someone, get a warning, and then attack the real target trick to avoid excom with the Pope himself. Probably not but perhaps worth trying. When I play I would probably leave the papal states though, I hate Pope comeback tours.
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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    HRE GA/Early/Hard/Default unit size

    Firstly, a correction of a comment I made earlier. Perhaps I got the thing about 'one level harder' came from the description for the conquest game? Anyway, under GA, the description says that HRE is no harder or easier than the difficulty level chosen.

    Firstly, get the lay of the land. In the incompleted campaigns before adding the VI package, none of the factions I'd played really got this far. I think I got the English to the border with Lorraine, my Almos got to southern France when the gamesave corrupted and my Byz campaigns headed off into Russia or Africa, rather than this direction. Even my agents rarely strayed far from ports to scout out the land.

    Phew! A lot of provinces to be looked after and only three training centres to start with. A no-brainer to crank out archers from Switzerland, UMs from Franconia(?) and spears from Burgundy. Start distributing these around as best as possible.

    The building program gets underway and the Emperor gets the much needed loyalty boost, from 'Builder' within about four turns. Tax rates begin to creep up but the income levels are still less than impressive, even with govs at Acumen 3 and 4. Troop buildup, as much as construction costs dips the treasury down from the opening 6000 down to 3-4000 and it continues to hover thereabouts with an annual profit of only 7-800, as of now.

    I reached a point where all four Provinces bordering the French had identical forces (1 Archer, 1 UM, 1 Spear, 1 Pez) and I felt comfortable leaving like that. I'd intended to crank out further troops with which to take on Italy but was pre-empted by France attacking Lorraine. I'd forgotten just how useless a 0-valour force under a 0-star general can be. I could easily have handled the foot troops they brought but the slightest contact between their 2-star prince's Royal Knights and the peasants I'd placed in a small thicket gave mere seconds to get a spear unit around onto their flank but it was too little, too late, as they both broke and ran almost straight away, taking the rest of my force with them.

    Lorraine revolted, ready for the following turn and I was pleasantly surprised to be presented with a free unit of archers, Feudal Sergeants (well ahead of the facilities to train them) and a unit I'd never seen before - Gothic Sergeants - as a 1-star general. Additional troops moving in from other provinces caused the French to abandon without a field battle, so I have yet to try out the mounted unit in a fight.

    Lorraine gets the same treatment as many of my 'frontline' provinces - no fort, if I can avoid it. I really don't like the idea of a faction leader, prince or a good general getting trapped in a fort when I'm caught off-guard by an AI-initiated battle, outnumbered, or out-teched, or out-moraled and beaten. Yes, I do get beaten by the AI at times but it's more often due to strategic blunders like too small a garrison, or too few command stars on a general, than tactical disasters on the battlefield.

    They attacked Friesland too, a while later but to their cost. They had to traverse a large wood to get to my troops. Having had problems in the past, trying to make out what the heck was going on, I actually placed my troops in the open but touching the treeline on my side of the wood. My archers went to the front face of the treeline, so as to skirmish backwards and draw them towards me.

    I set a unit of UMs at right angles to my frontline and tried to get them to flank their RK's when they made contact with my spears. That was the last I saw of them, save for the routing symbol flashing on their icon. Evidently the RKs had set off in pursuit of them but this did me a big favour. The remainder of his force was about 4 lots of archers and one of peasants. I think I had 2 peasants (one had the general flag but more on that in a moment), 2 archers and 2 spears. I charged them all through the wood and out into the clearing on the other side. Out of contact with their prince, they broke and ran and never stopped running.

    One of my spear units at the front treeline was shown as fighting something and it seems the Prince had come back for seconds. A half-broken unit or archers fired into the meleé but the spears were losing and clearly couldn't last forever. My pez general was safely out of trouble and I left him there. I'd lost sight of the other spears, which had lost a lot of men to who knows what and smaller than the one already losing. I dispatched them to the fight anyway, at maximum speed and managed to sandwich the Prince. Casualties mounted but soon he was the only man left and with only 40-odd men left between the two units, he was finally captured. Not a bad effort for a no-star general.

    The UM unit showed on the casualty list as a 100% loss to killed/captured but I anticipated getting the prisoners back, having won the day. Curiously, it was the 40 returned UMs who had routed off the field who got credited with the general's promotion. On the field and in the results sheet, it was one of the peasant units who had the big flag. Perhaps that unit type is on the 'discouraged' list for generals?

    EYG

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    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    continued...

    Even with the first GA points year approaching, I made a silly blunder, redistributing troops around and probably reducing the Friesland garrison size by 60 or 100 men. I should have known this would set something off. Maybe I even took my eye off the ball and forgot to check what the French were up to across the border?

    Perhaps I'd got it into my head that the 2222 florins they'd had to pay me to get their Prince back would have taught them a lesson? Nope, they went and attacked Friesland again.... in 1099!

    My 3-star Emperor ('Drinker' from turn 1, giving -1 cmd) had guarded the place for a year or two but I'd just sent him to Lorraine, so that his younger son (4-star) could move to Burgundy. The recently promoted general had gone to look after Brandenburg (3/4 stack of Poles, with their king, had taken Pomerania), leaving another no-star general in charge. The French bring something like 5 archers, the Prince (v6), another 20 RK's, 1 UM and maybe 1 Pez. I envisaged lots of casualties to missiles and maybe enough morale hit to make mine break even before meleé started, so I cop out and retreat to the castle. Bang goes how ever many points apply to a Homeland lost. grrr

    Of course, my king and a full stack reliee the siege and see them off without a proper fight but the damage is done and the lesson learned. Next points year expect attacks!

    At the same time, I wonder why I'm making such a fuss over Friesland, which is worth barely 100 fl per turn anyway. I've ignored my own advice about maybe letting go of a cruddy province, to make the most of the rest and take it back in later years, when growth in other directions has strengthened the economy. For some reason, I'd decided to build my first port there (aiming at shipbuilding), rather than Saxony which still lacks even a fort. In fact, I've yet to commit to the port build until Friesland ceases to attract French attacks. I reckon I'll have to change tack and build it - and the ships -in Saxony. I'm safe from the Danes for the time being but they've already taken Sweden (hooray! they've attacked in the right direction at long last) and they will be raking in the cash before long. One war at a time, though.

    It's now 1101 and I am really paying the price of inaction against Italy, in the earliest turns of the game. France has been a distraction, I admit. I got my Papal warning after they'd attacked me without provocation and I was over-cautious in not making punitive attacks on France, for fear of full-blown ex-com which I'm not quite ready for yet.

    I had Toulouse in mind for a hit, which is disconnected from their northern provinces by a piece of English-held Anjou getting in the way. Attacking there gives them no path of retreat, meaning pillage AND a healthy bit of ransom. Trying to avoid ex-com means that they're now accumulating Hobilars down there, which will negate the power of my archers easily. To my dismay, I require a horse-breeder to get cav of any description and, even then, they'll be mounted x-bows, not 'proper' meleé light cav.

    The big mistake is not capitalising on the Papal warning right away, opening up against Italy before they'd built up forces and leaving the French to keep their gains, if only for the length of time it took to finish the Italian campaign.

    As for the Italians themselves, the puny stacks I had politely let be for the past decade have swelled to 3/4 stacks so rapidly, I wonder if I was paying proper attention or not. Admittedly it's mostly UMs but they have a healthy scattering of valour-1 units in there. I know about the stats differences, so it looks like I'm going to need better than 2:1 numerical advantage as well as efficient flanking moves to fight these with v0 UMs of my own.

    Of course, the easy fix for that would be to get my King and Princes down there, to make the most of their valour bonuses but that leaves the door wide open to the French, who have a 5-star general (must check HEROES.TXT for him) kicking around on my western border as well as a party invite to Austria, for the Huns and the Poles, whose stacks now seem bigger than mine.

    So, here's a brain-teaser for HRE experts out there, as well as being a generalised question about overall strategy.

    Q. How willing are you and how advisable is it to take territory off one faction, when you know that it must come at the cost of a second faction taking a different set of lands off you, because you simply don't have enough troops to look after both jobs at once?

    In my case, I see the Italian provinces as being better wealth-generators than the landlocked provinces bordering France. They also give me access to the Mediterranean, which I'll definitely need, come the time to Crusade. Furthermore, kicking the Italians off the mainland is a war that can be fought to completion (ending with no shared borders) within the lifetime of one Emperor, so any resultant excom will eventually end.

    In conquest mode, I wouldn't have to worry about conceding ground to the French, so long as my gains are worth more, in the long-term, than what I lost. No doubt, I will gain sufficient strength to take them back and, who knows, I could even let the French spend cash on building stuff, which I can pillage or steal from them later on - so they could be doing me a favour!

    In GA mode, however, it does mean losing homelands, so I have to wonder whether it may ultimately cost me the game, when the final totals are known, if I repeatedly failed to get them back in the relevant years.

    EYG

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  22. #22
    Member Member MuseRulez's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
    Lorraine revolted, ready for the following turn and I was pleasantly surprised to be presented with a free unit of archers, Feudal Sergeants (well ahead of the facilities to train them) and a unit I'd never seen before - Gothic Sergeants - as a 1-star general.
    Nice! Gothics are normally only buildable in Late.
    Feudal sergeants.
    Charge 5 Attack 0 Defence –1 Armour 1 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 2 Cost 200 Support cost 62
    Chivalric sergeants.
    Charge 5 Attack –1 Defence 3 Armour 3 Speed 6, 10, 11 Morale 0 Cost 300 Support cost 62
    Gothic sergeants.
    Charge 5 Attack 0 Defence 5 Armour 5 Speed 4, 8, 9 Morale 2 Cost 350 Support cost 62
    As you can see they are slow, but I use spear defensively so that isn't much of a problem.
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  23. #23
    The hair proves it... Senior Member EatYerGreens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    My mistake with the unit name then, it was a 40-man, mounted unit. Apologies for the confusion.

    Similar helmet shape to Feudal Knights ('tin can' with an eye-slit) on the info parchment. Stats look good, but a smidgin short of RK's, give or take the larger numbers.

    Maybe I've got my Teutonics mixed up with my Gothics and it was Teutonic Sergeants?

    Anyway, I'm not complaining at all. Any Cav is good cav just now. The Horse Breeder is underway but since I have Switzerland (@keep) heading down the militia line (towards Pikemen) and Swabia going for a Swordsmith (starting next year), the Horse Breeder is in Bavaria, which needs a keep & Spearmaker's workshop before I've got Mounted Sergeants. That's more than a decade away.

    By the way, I've read about Swabian Swordsmen and can see an icon for them in the VI Armybuilder utility but the Swordsmith info parchment in Swabia only lists FMAA as buildable. The leaflet which comes with VI does say that Swordsmith in Swabia is the only requirement, so fingers crossed that it's just a matter of the parchment being generically worded and not customiseable province by province. Their stats look pretty impressive!

    EYG

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  24. #24
    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    As far as defensive tactics, I've never felt that my border garrisons had any effect on an AI faction's decision of whether or not to attack. A bigger garrison makes them bring more troops, period. And if your garrison isn't big enough to defeat all the troops they bring, you have the option of either abandoning province or going into a crappy 1-year siege.

    What I always do with my "cold" borders (and even my "hot" ones) is a leave a single unit or a depleted unit and upgrade the castle to its max. If the AI wants to invade, that's fine-- sometimes I'll even give them a small battle, near the edge of the battlemap, just to get my numbers down to durable levels.

    Now, if I want the province right back, and I have the troops nearby to do it, I'll counterattack immediately. But if not, the enemy is stuck with a many-year siege, and often they'll assault. They'll lose 100-500 men total taking out 60 or fewer of mine, and be held up for years (the AI rarely pushes onward with a castle to siege).

    Having large defensive garrisons on all borders IMO is inefficient. Though with the HRE's lack of water access, you probably do have to tie down more troops to specific regions.

    DA

  25. #25
    Minion of Zoltan Member Roark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
    Q. How willing are you and how advisable is it to take territory off one faction, when you know that it must come at the cost of a second faction taking a different set of lands off you, because you simply don't have enough troops to look after both jobs at once?
    I say loudly and proudly that Saxony and Friesland can get buggered. Spanning the length of the mainland is not all it's cracked up to be. The Danish get tired of waiting, and Olaf is a particularly virile man. He and his soccer team of sons can have Saxony. They rarely sink deeper inland anyway, so let him stretch his forces until you have the money to pump out unit after unit of Swiss halbs, then take the North in time for the Hanseatic alliance.

    I am more and more convinced that killing the Italians and allying with the French (if possible) is the way to go. If and when the English start beating the snot out of them, I have found that they are fairly conducive to forming an alliance as well.

    I'm always a bit hesitant about the Pope...

  26. #26
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    HRE, XL, Early, Expert

    I got lucky in the opening game. The AI held off attacking long enough for me to make some small flexible armies. The French attacked first (of course) and I was able to take them down until I reached the English mainland border with no excom warning . The Hungarians were polite enough to wait until that war concluded to launch their attack and shortly (surprisingly) they were defeated. Then the Danes attacked and were beaten back the following year followed by an unsuccessful attack north (their infantry is too good early on with that bridge). So that army remains to defend against them. Then the Poles (a few years later) launched another attack and that's where I am. I tell you I've never had the AI be so polite before, it's quite refreshing.


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  27. #27
    Sports Freak Member dgfred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    I'm no expert, but I do almost always play HRE. Every game, almost, I knock
    out the Danes early, no backdoor problems there . Next I almost always
    smack the French - getting Flanders, Champaign and Isl de France,
    with plans for Toulouse. I like to leave Italy alone for a good while, mainly
    because they usually don't attack unless you are undergarrisoned in
    Tyrolia, Provence or Burgandy. They mostly worry about getting hit by
    the Hungarians and Sicilians. I like to keep my eastern provinces well
    defended with assorted troops and use Poland, Russia and sometimes
    Byzantines as a buffer for the oncomimg Horde onslaught. My crusades are
    used to capture Antioch, Tripoli and Palestine for points, and any other
    provinces in that area that I want. After my homeland is secure, with nice
    tidy borders- I decide what my next plan of action will be. For some reason
    I can never get along with the Byz and usually have to weaken them in some
    way or another. I decide Spain and Englands fate depending on how well
    they are doing (pts) and their attitude to me in the early game .
    PB-PL Commander/CC2 Commander/MTW Commander

  28. #28
    Sports Freak Member dgfred's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Oh, I forgot to mention my THANKS to EYG for letting us lurk his HRE game.
    PB-PL Commander/CC2 Commander/MTW Commander

  29. #29
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    @ EYG – Sounds like a fun campaign you have going, cant wait to hear more!
    You mentioned not building a fort in a province to save a leader from being trapped, good enough reason. I build forts ASAP to try and boost population loyalty. Am I wasting my cash/time trying to build them so quick? I could wait a few years for interior/non boarder provinces.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

  30. #30
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Holy Roman Headache!

    Ah, the wild ride of the HRE in early! One of the funnest games I had was with the HRE, with each of my neighbors in turn deciding to break their alliances and attack me. I used the papal warning limit to my advantage and shifted my offensive war from one to the next until I got a new warning and managed to get through the entire affair without getting exed once.

    For EYG, I would definitely recommend pumping out Swabians as soon as possible. If I remember right, they require a swordsmith's workshop, so they're a little further off, but I'd dedicate Swabia to doing nothing else till it techs up to that level and then mass-produce those killing machines. Combined with archers and a decent general, you really don't need anything else for your main army in the early German game. Just stretch 'em in a long line and advance on the enemy across the front. Unless they've got an awesome general or some specialized troops (as the Byzantines tend to) you should be able to sweep virtually anybody right off the field with limited casualties.

    During Robert Guiscard's conquest of southern Italy he was faced with a combined offensive by the Pope and the Byzantines. At the battle of Civitate in 1053 he faced the Papal army, which included 700 mercenary Swabian infantry alongside thousands of Italian troops. Two thirds of the Norman army of 3000 knights were fought to a standstill by the Swabians (while the other 1000 defeated the rest of the Pope's army!) That's 2000 of the best heavy cavalry of the day unable to defeat a puny force of 700 swordsmen. While the game doesn't reflect quite this level of ability in the unit, these are still some serious bad*ss's. Make the most of them! (see Warfare in Feudal Europe, by John Beeler, for more info on the battle and many others)

    "I do not yet know how chivalry will fare in these calamitous times of ours." --- Don Quixote
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