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Thread: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

  1. #1
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    I find this story hard to believe. On the other hand the source is serious, the quotes are there and the story of the firemen's Odyssee can be found on other outlets as well, written by different reporters. After what Aenlic posted about Michael Brown's deputies who all appear to be clowns who were given their job for political reasons, it really makes you wonder how well prepared the U.S. is for any sort of national emergency. And it is going to force me to take a hard look at the plans and organisations that we have in place in The Netherlands and see if there is a similar degree of complacency and incompetence. Oh there is, there must be. If a nation like the U.S. with it great history and expertise in firefighting and emergency rescue (just think of the NY firefighters on 9/11) can sink so low, I shudder to think what may have unwittingly become of the Dutch expertise in flood and emergency control if, say, some terrorist explodes a bomb in the industrial and oil refinery fields of the port city of Rotterdam. Have we, in the western world, somehow lost a sense of purpose, solidarity, civic duty?

    Anyway, read and cringe..



    Firefighters endure a day of FEMA training,
    which included a course on sexual harassment.
    Some firefighters say their skills are being
    wasted. (Leah Hogsten/The Salt Lake Tribune)


    Frustrated: Fire crews to hand out fliers for FEMA

    By Lisa Rosetta
    The Salt Lake Tribune
    9/06/2005


    ATLANTA - Not long after some 1,000 firefighters sat down for eight hours of training, the whispering began: "What are we doing here?"
    As New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta.
    Many of the firefighters, assembled from Utah and throughout the United States by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, thought they were going to be deployed as emergency workers.
    Instead, they have learned they are going to be community-relations officers for FEMA, shuffled throughout the Gulf Coast region to disseminate fliers and a phone number: 1-800-621-FEMA.
    On Monday, some firefighters stuck in the staging area at the Sheraton peeled off their FEMA-issued shirts and stuffed them in backpacks, saying they refuse to represent the federal agency.
    Federal officials are unapologetic.
    "I would go back and ask the firefighter to revisit his commitment to FEMA, to firefighting and to the citizens of this country," said FEMA spokeswoman Mary Hudak.
    The firefighters - or at least the fire chiefs who assigned them to come to Atlanta - knew what the assignment would be, Hudak said.
    "The initial call to action very specifically says we're looking for two-person fire teams to do community relations," she said. "So if there is a breakdown [in communication], it was likely in their own departments."
    One fire chief from Texas agreed that the call was clear to work as community-relations officers. But he wonders why the 1,400 firefighters FEMA attracted to Atlanta aren't being put to better use. He also questioned why the U.S. Department of Homeland Security - of which FEMA is a part - has not responded better to the disaster.
    The firefighters, several of whom are from Utah, were told to bring backpacks, sleeping bags, first-aid kits and Meals Ready to Eat. They were told to prepare for "austere conditions." Many of them came with awkward fire gear and expected to wade in floodwaters, sift through rubble and save lives.
    "They've got people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified," said a Texas firefighter. "We're sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven't been contacted yet."
    The firefighter, who has encouraged his superiors back home not to send any more volunteers for now, declined to give his name because FEMA has warned them not to talk to reporters.
    On Monday, two firefighters from South Jordan and two from Layton headed for San Antonio to help hurricane evacuees there. Four firefighters from Roy awaited their marching orders, crossing their fingers that they would get to do rescue and recovery work, rather than paperwork.
    "A lot of people are bickering because there are rumors they'll just be handing out fliers," said Roy firefighter Logan Layne, adding that his squad hopes to be in the thick of the action. "But we'll do anything. We'll do whatever they need us to do."
    While FEMA's community-relations job may be an important one - displaced hurricane victims need basic services and a variety of resources - it may be a job best suited for someone else, say firefighters assembled at the Sheraton.
    "It's a misallocation of resources. Completely," said the Texas firefighter.
    "It's just an under-utilization of very talented people," said South Salt Lake Fire Chief Steve Foote, who sent a team of firefighters to Atlanta. "I was hoping once they saw the level of people . . . they would shift gears a little bit."
    Foote said his crews would be better used doing the jobs they are trained to do.
    But Louis H. Botta, a coordinating officer for FEMA, said sending out firefighters on community relations makes sense. They already have had background checks and meet the qualifications to be sworn as a federal employee. They have medical training that will prove invaluable as they come across hurricane victims in the field.
    A firefighter from California said he feels ill prepared to even carry out the job FEMA has assigned him. In the field, Hurricane Katrina victims will approach him with questions about everything from insurance claims to financial assistance.
    "My only answer to them is, '1-800-621-FEMA,' " he said. "I'm not used to not being in the know."
    Roy Fire Chief Jon Ritchie said his crews would be a "little frustrated" if they were assigned to hand out phone numbers at an evacuee center in Texas rather than find and treat victims of the disaster.
    Also of concern to some of the firefighters is the cost borne by their municipalities in the wake of their absence. Cities are picking up the tab to fill the firefighters' vacancies while they work 30 days for the federal government.
    "There are all of these guys with all of this training and we're sending them out to hand out a phone number," an Oregon firefighter said. "They [the hurricane victims] are screaming for help and this day [of FEMA training] was a waste."
    Firefighters say they want to brave the heat, the debris-littered roads, the poisonous cottonmouth snakes and fire ants and travel into pockets of Louisiana where many people have yet to receive emergency aid.
    But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  2. #2
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    This is a joke right?

    IF if isn't, Gah! it has to be a joke.

    No one that stupid still can breath...

    City burning, assemble firefighters to hand out flyers... cunning plan indeed.



    Just shoot whoever is in charge and chalk it up as a win-win for Darwinisn (getting rid of the too stupid to live) and Religion (help your fellow man).

    Really it is a joke right? No one can be that incompetent to run something like this during a disaster?
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    No one that stupid still can breath...
    Amazing isn't it? I mean I would understand if this was a country that has little to show for in disaster control. In the former Soviet Union emergency management usually came down to (1) causing a major screw-up, (2) shooting all the witnesses, (3) posing for heroic Pravda picture. But seeing America's finest reduced to schoolkids listening to a bunch of PC crap while they could have be saving lives - I mean their mere presence in LA would have been enough to raise peoples' spirits...
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Pinko Member _Martyr_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    At least they wont be gropping any of the females who get the fliers. And with all that medical training, papercuts wont be a problem at all!

    This is sad.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Can you imagine being a FEMA emergency management professional, standing in front of a hall of 1.000 tough, well-trained, qualified professional firefighters and telling them they were going to hand out fliers and they better do so with the other hand behind their backs for fear they might give offence? Could you do that without choking on your own breath and saying 'sorry guys, I will personally see to it that you are organised in teams and given mobile or satellite phones, trucks with experienced drivers, equipment -- from the Army if need be -- and staging areas and targets within the next 24 hours'.

    I mean could you?
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Member Member Petrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    I hope it is a fake.

    If it is not well i do not know, how is it simply possible?

  7. #7
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Unfortunately it is not as false as one would hope. I once did a FEMA mission back around 1998-1999 and two firefighting support missions. In all three I had to sit in about 8 hours of classroom type lectures where absolutely none crititical information was given - now in their defense about half of the classes where mission related - the other half were what the article points out in the following quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by FEMA Stupidity
    They've got people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified," said a Texas firefighter. "We're sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven't been contacted yet."
    Yep I can confirm at least that part of the stupidity most likely happened from past experiences with FEMA. At least the Firefighting Mission then went with 3 days of training soldiers exactly what they needed to do in preforming the firefighting support tasks that are assigned to soldiers - so the forest fighting professionals can tackle the main fire.

    So the other parts of the article - while seemily outragous and a waste of resources - doesn't surprise me all that much. Stuff like this happens with FEMA more then I care to remember.

    Oh by the way - this would of happened regardless of who was President or who was the agency head - part of the problem you see being presented in the article is the agency itself and the way it was set up.

    Goes to support what I said in an earlier thread about FEMA.
    Last edited by Redleg; 09-08-2005 at 13:47.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    zombologist Senior Member doc_bean's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    You'd think that after 9/11 the government agencies would have learned a thing or two. This is so sad
    Yes, Iraq is peaceful. Go to sleep now. - Adrian II

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    what utter inicomptence I mean wow just wow
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by doc_bean
    You'd think that after 9/11 the government agencies would have learned a thing or two. This is so sad
    HELLLOOOOOOOO!

    Wake up people! This is bureacratic federal government in action. The 9/11 episode (or any such episode) does not result in less lecture but more, so that the responders can be better "prepared" with information gathered during the last episode.

    All bureacratized government groups acrete such nonsense -- its the norm. Only the military ever seems to pare it back -- once in a while -- and I doubt they would succeed in streamlining if it weren't for the fact that getting shot at tends to clear one's thinking as to matters of importance (or so I am told). It is probably a blessing that "rear areas" aren't entirely safe in modern war, or not enough of them would get shot at to encourage them to clear the bureacratic crap out of the way.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    You'd think we would've learned. But a certain group in this country (none of the people on this board) are more concerned about feeling good and not offending anyone than actaully accomplishing anything.

    For an example, look at the Australian official who got felt she had to condemn a statement made by a man who was the hostage of terrorists (the terrorists cut off the neck of the other guy right next to them.). The ex-hostage called them a**holes. The idiot woman thought that was insensitive, callous, mean, and unnecessary. Heaven forbid you're not polite to savages who saw a head off a guy right next to you! After all, they fed him!

    Crazed Rabbit
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    As much as I would like to lay this incompetence at the feet of the Republican Party in general, and Bush in particular, I have to concede that what we are seeing is a problem that is the fault of bureaucracies as a whole. This would have happened no matter who was in power.
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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    And as AdrianII stated, it's most certainly not limited to the US.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

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    Member Member Productivity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    You'd think we would've learned. But a certain group in this country (none of the people on this board) are more concerned about feeling good and not offending anyone than actaully accomplishing anything.

    For an example, look at the Australian official who got felt she had to condemn a statement made by a man who was the hostage of terrorists (the terrorists cut off the neck of the other guy right next to them.). The ex-hostage called them a**holes. The idiot woman thought that was insensitive, callous, mean, and unnecessary. Heaven forbid you're not polite to savages who saw a head off a guy right next to you! After all, they fed him!

    Crazed Rabbit
    Actually that was for a different reason - much of the criticism revovled around the fact that they still had Iraqi hostages, and while calling a spade a spade is fine, calling a spade a spade at teh cost of innocent Iraqi lives isn't.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
    And as AdrianII stated, it's most certainly not limited to the US.
    Yup. We have seen in Srbrenica in 1996 that our Dutch military are not really geared for military action -- they've become bureaucrats, with lethal results. Sure, there were all sorts of excuses: we couldn't do this, we weren't expected to do that, we didn't have permission to yadda yadda... I was ashamed then just as much as any American could be after 'New Orleans'.

    And it really makes me look hard at our own disaster preparedness, because ever since the big flood of 1953 we have not had a major disaster in The Netherlands anymore. There was the near-flooding of 1995, but that was all. And 1953 is a long, long time ago. I wonder how much self-complacency and incompetence and bureaucracy have eaten away at our preparedness.
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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    And it really makes me look hard at our own disaster preparedness, because ever since the big flood of 1953 we have not had a major disaster in The Netherlands anymore. There was the near-flooding of 1995, but that was all. And 1953 is a long, long time ago. I wonder how much self-complacency and incompetence and bureaucracy have eaten away at our preparedness.
    Probably a lot - have there been any rehearsals by the government on the evacuation plan? Usually the first sign of complacency is the failure to rehearse the plan.

    It doesn't have to be where the citizens were actually evacuated - but a dress rehearsal involving the governmental agencies that would have to execute the plan.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Yup. We have seen in Srbrenica in 1996 that our Dutch military are not really geared for military action -- they've become bureaucrats, with lethal results. Sure, there were all sorts of excuses: we couldn't do this, we weren't expected to do that, we didn't have permission to yadda yadda... I was ashamed then just as much as any American could be after 'New Orleans'.
    Certainly. My dad set up the webpages for the whole final Srebenica report, and I read a lot of it. Utterly appalling stuff, particularly the whole attitude of 'not my responsibility'.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I wonder how much self-complacency and incompetence and bureaucracy have eaten away at our preparedness.
    Probably quite a lot. The worst the dutch police have had to handle recently are football hooligans, and the general contempt for the authorities around here won't help matters.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    Probably a lot - have there been any rehearsals by the government on the evacuation plan? Usually the first sign of complacency is the failure to rehearse the plan.

    It doesn't have to be where the citizens were actually evacuated - but a dress rehearsal involving the governmental agencies that would have to execute the plan.
    Exactly. You don't have a response plan until you test it with some sort of rehearsal.

    Even without rehearsal having a detailed written plan can help, but if you don't have any real regional plan on paper you are even further in the hole. It's not enough just to get a bus out of the city. You have to have it headed to a destination. We didn't have anything coherent.

    This whole disaster has been a wake up call. Unfortunately, some of our leaders still don't seem to get it. They want to cover it up rather than dig in to figure out what went wrong, and I'm hopping mad.
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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Go go go red tape.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Actually that was for a different reason - much of the criticism revovled around the fact that they still had Iraqi hostages, and while calling a spade a spade is fine, calling a spade a spade at teh cost of innocent Iraqi lives isn't.
    The man (as it turns out, not a woman) I wrote about did not care at all for the hostages. The only reason he was mad about the a**holes comment by the ex-hostage was because it was mean-spirited, offensive, insensitive, etc.

    http://www.hwt.com.au/common/story_p...E25717,00.html

    The criticism was solely because some on the left are so filled with hate for America that they can't distinguish between terrorist (who hates America, and must therefore be good) and hostage (who insults his captors, and must therefore be a boorish, insensitive twit). They don't care about hostages. And insulting the terrorists would make no difference-people everywhere do it all the time. It's not like the terrorists are as emotionally frail as liberal man thinks they are, and they kill someone whenever someone, somewhere, uses a minor swear against them.

    Crazed Rabbit
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
    Certainly. My dad set up the webpages for the whole final Srebenica report, and I read a lot of it. Utterly appalling stuff, particularly the whole attitude of 'not my responsibility'.

    Probably quite a lot. The worst the dutch police have had to handle recently are football hooligans, and the general contempt for the authorities around here won't help matters.
    Redleg and Red Harvest are right, the number (and extent) of drills says a lot about preparedness. You and I both know where the weak spots are. Number 1 is the Botlek area near Rotterdam. If that goes up in flames, we have at the same time (1) a huge environmental disaster, (2) an immediate physical threat to the entire region, and (3) a national economic disaster ten times worse than the 1973 oil crisis. And no amount of publicity is going to cover up the damage. Poor Jan Peter would be blown straight out of his Wellingtons if he so much as tried to tour the damaged area...
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    The really sad part is that it won't be fixed. The Republicans in Congress are already maneuvering to place all the blame on the governor of Louisiana, a Democrat, and the mayor of New Orleans, a Democrat. Tom DeLay has stated publicly that the problems were caused by a lack on the part of state and local authorities; and then he specifically mentions what a good job the governors of Mississippi and Alabama, both Republicans (one of whom used to be the Chairman of the RNC) have done.

    As for the president's "investigation" of what went wrong, do you really think the man who put his arm around FEMA director Brown's shoulders while touring Alabama relief efforts and then said, "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job" is going to turn around and place blame on the guy who he has already publicly commended for doing a good job? Not a chance Rove would allow that kind of public about face to happen. Bush has not once, not ever, admitted doing anything wrong or apologized for anything. He's not going to start now.

    In the end, this will all be blamed on Blanco and Nagin and any other Democrats upon whom they can conveniently shift blame. Do Blanco and Nagin deserve part of the blame? Absolutely. But they're going to get all of it. Guaranteed.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Firefighters used as Bush bride's maids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenlic
    "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job"
    I didn't know Bush could be so ironic...
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