Stalin.... a monster or a strong leader?

[Ice]

I know i started a post on weather the USSR was evil a while back, but seeing this written made me think:

He (Stalin) was posthumously denounced by Khrushchev at the 20th Party Congress (1956) for crimes against the Party and for building a ‘cult of personality’. Under Gorbachev many of Stalin's victims were rehabilitated, and the whole phenomenon of ‘Stalinism’ officially condemned by the Soviet authorities. While many regard Stalin as a brutal dictator possibly equalled only by Hitler in the scale of the terror he wreaked, others question whether the Soviet Union would have survived to win victories in World War 2 under a more liberal leader.

My question is: Do you think stalin was an evil dictator or a man that had to do what he had to do to survive in a difficult time (holding the union together in the 20s, 30s, and through the 40s, industrilizing the USSR from a farming country to a semi modern country, and Expanding the Union and its influnce through eastern Europe?)

[Reverend Joe]

He was a great leader for building the nation- but he was an EVIL mother****er. I like to say I love him, to mess with my rightwinger friends, but the truth is I hate him, and even more so that I am reading a thorough biography on him, by Robert Service. Good book. Bad man.

By the way, if truth be told, he was not psychotic- he was really kinda hard to explain. If you read Robert Service's book, you will really understand him. Understanding and justifying, however, are two different things- so, while I vote that I understand what he did, that in NO way means that I see any justification for his actions.

[LeftEyeNine]

May one of you please summarize the Stalin's deeds ? I only know that he was a dictator, nothing more..

[Lemur]

This would be a good place to start reading ...

[Reverend Joe]

May one of you please summarize the Stalin's deeds ? I only know that he was a dictator, nothing more..

Uh...

Wow. That's like asking for a "summary" of Rome or Greece- or, aptly, Russia herself. But I am sure that a wiser person than I can help you.

[PanzerJaeger]

All self proclaimed "communists" are inherently bad people and should not be tolerated.

If it wasnt Stalin, it would have been someone else. He was simply the result of an evil ideology.

[Ice]

May one of you please summarize the Stalin's deeds ? I only know that he was a dictator, nothing more..

In Short:

Stalin was born in Georgia. He joined the communist part and along with many other famous Russian Revolutionaries (particurally Vladamir Lenin) helped overthrow the oppressive tsarist regime to form an athiest, Marxist state. After the death of the first leader (Lenin), Stalin rose to power elimimating policatal rivals. By the 1930s he had total control over the USSR. During this time, he made many purges including many of the top military officals and engineers of the USSR. Many people were sentenced death or exile on charges of false treason. Stalin killed some of the best and brightest the USSR had to offer. He also made many 5 year plans which industrilzied the USSR but at the cost of millions of lives. When Hitler declared war on Russia, 20 million Russians perished before Berlin was finally taken. Stalin had stern policy of not surrendering and sending soldiers of the Red Army on suicidial charges. After WWII was over, he lied to the other allied countries with his promisees of free elections in many of the nations "liberated". Access was also denied to East Germany and the USSR from western nations. Stalin continued his purges until his death in 1953.

Stalin certainly saved the USSR from death by Nazi Germany, but at what cost? He also made it a world super power, but at what cost?

[JAG]

Stalin was a monster and there can be no justification for the authoritarian, genocidal and disgusting things he did. The only thing he managed to do was put a black stain on the communist / socialist cause.

[Aenlic]

All self proclaimed "communists" are inherently bad people and should not be tolerated.

If it wasnt Stalin, it would have been someone else. He was simply the result of an evil ideology.

(snicker)

Why isn't there a snicker smiley? We need a snicker smiley!

[LeftEyeNine]

Well, I need no in depth things for a start. When he ruled, which party he belonged to, some numerical info about how many people he slained for his dictatorship etc. for example.

Anyway, I'll look into Wikipedia as instructed and still would like your own additions here.

[Aenlic]

Stalin killed nearly as many of his own people, maybe even more, than the German fascists. There can be no excuse. Even Lenin saw things going wrong, in his final letters in 1923, lamenting the institutionalization of his "war communism" into a permanent thing. Lenin wasn't much better himself. It would have been far better had Nestor Makhno come to greater power in the Ukraine and put Lenin down.

[Devastatin Dave]

Stalin was a monster and there can be no justification for the authoritarian, genocidal and disgusting things he did. The only thing he managed to do was put a black stain on the communist / socialist cause.

So has every leader of any country to adopt this form of government, putting a "black stain" on communism and socialism, if that's even possible. I know, I know, "They just haven't done it right, let's try it again". Not that millions of lives have already paid the price for this warped ideology. But hey..

[LeftEyeNine]

ghost908, that's absolutely what I wanted. Thank you so much..

By the way, the game Civilization I used to portrait Stalin as the leader of Russia. They change it in the 3rd, though. That guy should have possessed some real power..

As once said, power causes corruption. It was in the wrongest hand that time however..

[Reverend Joe]

So has every leader of any country to adopt this form of government, putting a "black stain" on communism and socialism, if that's even possible. I know, I know, "They just haven't done it right, let's try it again". Not that millions of lives have already paid the price for this warped ideology. But hey..

No system works. It's just a matter of how obvious it is. Capitalism likes to keep its enemies alive- that way, there are more sources of revenue.

[JAG]

All self proclaimed "communists" are inherently bad people and should not be tolerated.

If it wasnt Stalin, it would have been someone else. He was simply the result of an evil ideology.

1) There is no such thing as being 'inherently bad'.

2) Prove why it would have been 'someone else'.

3) Show how communism has caused more deaths through history than any other form of government. Let it be your beloved fascism, other forms of dictatorships or capitalism.

4) Show how communism is an 'evil ideology'.

For someone with views such as you do, plus stating they are a fascist and seemingly worships Germany during WW2, you are skating on thin ground when you go around declaring others anything to do with evil.

[JAG]

So has every leader of any country to adopt this form of government, putting a "black stain" on communism and socialism, if that's even possible. I know, I know, "They just haven't done it right, let's try it again". Not that millions of lives have already paid the price for this warped ideology. But hey..

Dave my friend, I am sure we have done this before. Dave you know full well there are places where socialism and communism works, not to mention how it has been incorporated into the capitalist model of so many nations. If it is so wrong and evil, how comes capitalism has to be 'tainted' by this 'evil and impure' ideology?

You also know full well - or should - that capitalism has killed just as many people as communism. Why is it that the one with ideals of fairness, equality and social justice for all men, women, colour and creed is evil and the one about making as much money as you can and screwing everyone who gets in your way, is so saintly?

[PanzerJaeger]

1) There is no such thing as being 'inherently bad'.

Not true. The existence of people such as Stalin refutes that claim.

2) Prove why it would have been 'someone else'.

Take a look down south in China, or anywhere in South Asia where communism flourished. Next stop by Cuba, and study up on the torture chambers of the beloved Che.

Do you think it was just a coincidence that the second largest genocide after communist Russia's was in communist China? The existence of North Korea doesnt make you stop and think.. "hey, maybe its not just some nuts, but the system."

3) Show how communism has caused more deaths through history than any other form of government. Let it be your beloved fascism, other forms of dictatorships or capitalism.

One only needs to look at the numbers. Combining Russia and China alone gives you the largest manmade genocide in history, not even counting all the others killed in the smaller countries.

4) Show how communism is an 'evil ideology'.

Do the genocides that have taken place in every communist country ever in existence not speak for themselves?

For someone with views such as you do, plus stating they are a fascist and seemingly worships Germany during WW2, you are skating on thin ground when you go around declaring others anything to do with evil.

Nice diversion, but this has nothing to do with fascism does it?

[Redleg]

Okay I will play.

1) There is no such thing as being 'inherently bad'.

Maybe - maybe not.

2) Prove why it would have been 'someone else'.

Were any of the other leaders of the USSR truely any better then Stalin in how they used their power. They might of killed less people for crimes against the state - but the history of the USSR shows that there was some potential even with another leader then Stalin of massive crimes against humanity on their own citizens by the rulers of the USSR. Would they have gone to the extremes that Stalin did - well that is questionable.

3) Show how communism has caused more deaths through history than any other form of government. Let it be your beloved fascism, other forms of dictatorships or capitalism.

Oh lets just throw some figures out there.

Lenin - had by direct means a lot of people killed - and by indirect means caused the death of many more. I am not going to look up the sites - but the number of people killed on Lenin's orders exceed 1,000,000. If you throw in the governmental caused famine - the number grows even larger very quickly.

Then there is Stalin - figures vary from 10,000,000 to 20,000,000 killed on his orders. Depending on who's data your looking at. This is not counting the soldiers killed fighting the Nazi's.

Pol Pot - over 1,000,000.

North Korea - unknown how many.

Communist China - again unknown how many - but estimates place it at a greater number then Stalin's purges.

Facism runs a close second compared to those killed by communism - and you have to include the war figures to get them as high as the numbers killed in the name of communism.

4) Show how communism is an 'evil ideology'.

I would think it was perfectly clear. Just read Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. It set the conditions for the corruption. Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely.

For someone with views such as you do, plus stating they are a fascist and seemingly worships Germany during WW2, you are skating on thin ground when you go around declaring others anything to do with evil.

Yep good point.

[Ice]

1) There is no such thing as being 'inherently bad'.

2) Prove why it would have been 'someone else'.

3) Show how communism has caused more deaths through history than any other form of government. Let it be your beloved fascism, other forms of dictatorships or capitalism.

4) Show how communism is an 'evil ideology'.

For someone with views such as you do, plus stating they are a fascist and seemingly worships Germany during WW2, you are skating on thin ground when you go around declaring others anything to do with evil.

2. All members of the bolshiviek (sp) party were mostly corrupt like Lenin and Stalin, thus it would have been someone else.

3. Communism has not been around long enough to cause as many deaths as the other things. The first communist were written by Marx and Engles in the mid 1800s, compared to dictatorships which have been around for ages. It has a had a huge impact on the world. Looking from an example of the USSR (Stalin) , many other countries developed a corrupt form of "communism" which led to the suffering of millions.

4. It is an evil ideology plan and simple. It sounds good in theory, until you start to analyze it. ex: A Business owner starts a business. SInce, he started it, he takes most of the risks, so he should reap the greatest profit. HIs employes should get paid according to what he thinks is fair, for after all, they are not risking a lot simply working. The communist idea is flawed in the fact that in neglects how much risk the owners put forth. Another thing is, you have no personal freedom. Communism eliminates private property making everything state owned and controled. The idea is good in which everyone shares, but their is no person. It is just a mass. There is no uniqueness which cuts down on creativity.



Left Eye Nine, you are very welcome

[Zharakov]

Stalin will rot in hell... MAY COMMUNISIUM DIE FOREVER!

[Ice]

Stalin will rot in hell... MAY COMMUNISIUM DIE FOREVER!

We just have do away with the fake communist states now: China and Viet Nam. Oh yeah.. and that worthless little island below us.

[Zharakov]

I wish the rest of the world would overthrow there useless governments and help out in ridding the world of the most vile curse to the world... Communisium...

[Reverend Joe]

Zharakov, for god's sake, keep it civil.

[PanzerJaeger]

His sentiment is quite reasonable considering the topic.

[JAG]

I wish the rest of the world would overthrow there useless governments and help out in ridding the world of the most vile curse to the world... Communisium...

Says the person who is debating so persistantly in another thread about every life - even when very debatable whether it is a life or not - being so important. It always amazes me, as I have said here before, how the very same people who will scream until the cows go home about life being sacred are the first to declare that war should be implemented, overthrow should be the first resort and that an eye for an eye, including the death penalty, should alwways be in effect.

Sometimes it just seems like certain people want to impose their morals and their thinking on others, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Ah well...

Let me go a pee then I shall attempt to answer some of the responses to my post to PJ.

[AntiochusIII]

His sentiment is quite reasonable considering the topic.

Yup. From now on we are allowed to show the middle finger everytime anyone brings up Hitler.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Zharakov, for god's sake, keep it civil.

Actually, given his passion for the issue, I believe he is.

Seamus

[Zharakov]

His sentiment is quite reasonable considering the topic.

Many of you do not understand how it feels to know the MILLIONS of your people were killed by this monster Stalin...

I really don't like stalin... So please understand why I also don't like Communisium... You can't understand unless you lived during it...

But I will tone down...

[Aenlic]

As long as we don't actually compare anyone to Hitler. Then we'll have to invoke Godwin's Law.

[AntiochusIII]

As long as we don't actually compare anyone to Hitler. Then we'll have to invoke Godwin's Law.

Sorry, too late, I did.

Considering Zharakov being a Russian, and the people's suffering beneath Stalin's dictatorship brutal regime in the cover of "communism" I think he is entitled to be rather...passionate about the issue.

But those right-wing propaganda believers in the West should not take advantage of his real experiences.

On the issue of communism I'll let the more informed discuss. Though, actually, I feel that many are just shouting at the "American haters" with no real knowledge of the ideology, as I am.