Alcoholic Alhomads

[Joshwa]

Mkay, one of my governors just got the alcoholic vice, fair play, but I thought Muslims didn't drink?! Surely he'd get executed or something if he was caught downing brews, especially with the hardcore fanatic Alhomads. He should get 'secret drinker' vice, and if it gets revealed -4 piety -10 hapiness or something

[Don Corleone]

Well, I think (I really don't know) you're correct. I just role-play it to being addicted to opium or hashish, things that were allowed in the Caliphate. So when it gives you 'drinker', think of it as 'likes to hit the hookah a little more than is advisable, can't get straight before the battle'.

[Joshwa]

Hahaha, that'd be well good if they got the 'stoner' vice!

[Feanaro]

Allah doesn't like drinking, 'tis true. However, as you may have noted, many people throughout history have professed faith but violated the teachings of that faith. And men of sufficient power and usefullness were often allowed to have their vices, if they kept them sufficiently out of the lime-light. Though it seems like the penalties should be stiffer for being an alcohol drinker in a Muslim society.

[antisocialmunky]

Why are you complaining about the drinking? AI Almonds seem to get more than their fair share of child shafting nutter butters than even the Early English.

[Joshwa]

oh the english do annoy me, no matter how much i help them by pummeling the french, leaving rebel provinces next to them, and bailing them out whenever they get beseiged, they still get battered!

[Roark]

Yeah, the Plantaganets are a messed up family...

Its often seems that they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag...

Sometimes, you've just gotta let them die, and then clean up the mess.

[antisocialmunky]

Are you playing 1.0? The French like to take over everything.

[Patron]

I managed to keep the plantagenats in line for about 50 years in my english campaign...

I just sent all the princes and kings into battle in the first decade, losing 3 princes before "natural" selection left me with an über king to rule during the second reign of my campaign. Unfortunately he only had 1 son and he went from inbred to, 8 fingers and missing a chin and it took another 3 generations to return the line to normal. Though after this I did get a few decent princes who restored their family name near the end of the game.

[Del Arroyo]

Yeah, what is up with the inbred vices that WORSEN as a general/princes gets older?? I mean, wouldn't you think that would be something fixed at birth???

DA

[Budwise]

Its hard to tell if someones a retard when their 4 years old. Real stupidity comes out with age, like your wife after a year of marrage.

[Feanaro]

Its hard to tell if someones a retard when their 4 years old. Real stupidity comes out with age, like your wife after a year of marrage.

Mental Retardation, and other genetic and birth defects, are something you are born with, whether anyone can tell or not. Most people don't go from being a perfect specimen of genetic health to damaged goods in a year. And we know if a general is secretly having an affair or the like, so why wouldn't we know the general is a genetic defect? Perhaps the world doesn't yet know but the general's incompetence would be very real.

The big problem with the inbred traits, IMO, is that they are all negative. Now, that sounds like an odd complaint but there are some positives to inbreeding. The negatives are the increased chance of unwanted gene reinforcements, a gradual homogenization of the line(This can actually be an advantage too, it's just a double edged sword. You get consistent results but little change. The gene material stagnates if you inbreed too much.), and often a loss of fertility and a weak immune system. But it also tends to reinforce good genes. If the defectives are culled(read: killed) some inbreeding can be a positive thing.

Imagine if we had a new aspect to the next Total War game; breeding. You try to match up your sons and daughters with people of the right sort to create a line of uber-children! Well, maybe not.

[Marquis de Said]

Mkay, one of my governors just got the alcoholic vice, fair play, but I thought Muslims didn't drink?! Surely he'd get executed or something if he was caught downing brews, especially with the hardcore fanatic Alhomads. He should get 'secret drinker' vice, and if it gets revealed -4 piety -10 hapiness or something

Actually, Muslims and their rulers did drink alcohol in those days (and even today), they just didn't advertise it too much. Several Arab chroniclers of the middle ages mention drinking in the Caliph's palace and some poets have even written whole poems praising drink.

One of the Ottoman Sultans in the 16th century (methinks Selim II) was also a famous drunk.

[EatYerGreens]

We really need a knowledgable Muslim on the forum, to sort this one out!

You have to distinguish between religious strictures, as set out in the Koran (sp?) and mere 'cultural disapproval' of drinking, perhaps written into Civil Law, which would have been arrived at after generations of observing the deleterious effects of chronic drinking.

I get the impression that Muslims have, historically, been extremely resistant to changes in the wording of the Koran and wouldn't have made 'revisionist' changes to it, even if there was a strong motivation to do so. In other words, if it wasn't in there to start with, I don't think they'll have added it in later.

Also, by way of a sidebar, the spread of Arabic languages probably means the Koran hasn't suffered the kind of mis-translation alterations that certain parts of the Christian Bible are thought to have suffered from, where actual meanings of sentences have subtly changed where a single word had no precise equivalent in the secondary language. The resultant conflicting interpretations have been the source of arguments ever since. I think what we have now went from Aramaic (ancient Hebrew), through Greek, to Latin and then into various nation's languages in the later middle ages.

[EatYerGreens]

I got distracted and forgot to make a vital point.

Alcoholic beverages, in those days, often represented the only potable form of liquid refreshment. Everything else was a disease-ridden passport to dysentery.

The significance of Jesus' water-into-wine miracle was that it provided the feast with something which was safe to drink. Alcohol kills the yeast which made it but also kills off most harmful bacteria. So it's not the same as saying that all piss-ups are granted holy approval.

The Muslims may have tolerated drinking for a long time but mostly on health grounds and the ban on alcohol now has the appearance of being a statement of high culture as if to say "we are so advanced that all our water is clean enough to drink".

I don't know how far back their drinking laws date to but it certainly bears looking into. A pity that the game developers didn't do this themselves.

[Marquis de Said]

We really need a knowledgable Muslim on the forum, to sort this one out!

You have to distinguish between religious strictures, as set out in the Koran (sp?) and mere 'cultural disapproval' of drinking, perhaps written into Civil Law, which would have been arrived at after generations of observing the deleterious effects of chronic drinking.

I get the impression that Muslims have, historically, been extremely resistant to changes in the wording of the Koran and wouldn't have made 'revisionist' changes to it, even if there was a strong motivation to do so. In other words, if it wasn't in there to start with, I don't think they'll have added it in later.

Also, by way of a sidebar, the spread of Arabic languages probably means the Koran hasn't suffered the kind of mis-translation alterations that certain parts of the Christian Bible are thought to have suffered from, where actual meanings of sentences have subtly changed where a single word had no precise equivalent in the secondary language. The resultant conflicting interpretations have been the source of arguments ever since. I think what we have now went from Aramaic (ancient Hebrew), through Greek, to Latin and then into various nation's languages in the later middle ages.

I have studied this subject at school and independently, so I will share my knowledge.

First of all, IIRC drinking is prohibited in the Koran, making it a point of no debate in Islamic law, since everything in the Koran is perceived to be the absolute truth. The wording of the Koran has remained the same since the days of the prophet and it should be recited in Arabic when used in prayer. However, there are differing interpretations of different passages in the Koran which have resulted in different schools of thought and even different sects, just like in Christendom. In addition to the Koran, Islamic law is based on examples and sayings from the life of the Prophet Muhammad. This has provided a huge collage of laws and precedents for laws, but sometimes the problem with it has been misinterpretation, conflicting laws within the texts themselves and their interpretations and the fact that most of these stories were collected several generations after the prophet had died. This latter fact means several of the texts may have been corrupted and (at the risk of being lynched by a pious Muslim reading this) completely fictitious. I'm no Islamic scholar or theologian, but this is what I have gathered from reading a few books on the subject.

To stay to the topic itself: Alcohol was prohibited after the spread of Islam, and I believe that officially it has been banned ever since. However, the less-pious Muslims and non-Muslim people in the Middle East have drunk alcohol almost all this time. We also tend to forget in our modern polarised world, where extremists make the front pages every day, that many medieval Muslim societies weren't half as strict about Islamic law as the Taliban or the Iranian government nowadays.

[Wingman]

Mkay, one of my governors just got the alcoholic vice, fair play, but I thought Muslims didn't drink?! Surely he'd get executed or something if he was caught downing brews, especially with the hardcore fanatic Alhomads. He should get 'secret drinker' vice, and if it gets revealed -4 piety -10 hapiness or something

You know, as the ultimate earthly enforcer of Allah’s will within your domain you could just execute your little sinner. Personally I think that executing outlaws and gamblers for treason and burning the philosophically inclined for heresy adds flavor to the game. That’s the way I like to play it.

[Feanaro]

We really need a knowledgable Muslim on the forum, to sort this one out!

You have to distinguish between religious strictures, as set out in the Koran (sp?) and mere 'cultural disapproval' of drinking, perhaps written into Civil Law, which would have been arrived at after generations of observing the deleterious effects of chronic drinking.

Surah 5(Al-Maeda)verse 90-91.

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.

YUSUFALI: Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain?
PICKTHAL: Satan seeketh only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink and games of chance, and to turn you from remembrance of Allah and from (His) worship. Will ye then have done?
SHAKIR: The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist?

Surah 2(AL-BAQARA)verse 219.

YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
PICKTHAL: They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.
SHAKIR: They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder

[EatYerGreens]

Thanks to Marquis and Feanaro for taking the time and trouble to type that up (I'm hoping it was more a case of cut'n'paste, actually).

Certainly makes the position unambiguous, though I'm sufficiently ignorant about it to be foxed by everything being written in triplicate. Yusufali/Pickthal and Shakir are, presumably, Islamic scholars, giving their interpretations or translations of the original text, or are they the Muslim equivalent of the apostles and this is the original text?

Curiosity aside, all this goes to show just how truly random the process of dishing out V&V's to generals is, which explains how some of them get apparently contradictory ones.

In this case, the drinking/gambler vices are deeply out-of-character for the Muslim generals in the game and something of an embarrassing gaffe on the part of the CA developers. Only a small amount of additional thought and coding would have been required to prevent it.

Provided that Muslim customers don't percieve wargames as 'games of chance' and thus don't buy a copy, there is even a risk that someone may be genuinely and deeply offended when they encounter this and take it just a bit too seriously.

For myself, I think I'll take WIngman's stance and role-play it next time I see it.

[Feanaro]

Much like the Bible's various translations(King James, New King James, etc) the Qur'an has been translated into English a number of times. These translations are usually referred to by the name of the translator, and those are the three most popular. To avoid any sticky points, I often use all three translations(I got those from this page, since I lack a Qur'an of my own to type from and I would be too lazy regardless.) The translations of the Qur'an tend to be more consistent than the Bible, often without much change in the wording and not often in the meaning. I thought of adding all that after I posted that but I cannot find an edit button. Sorry for any confusion.

I suppose one could defend the Alcoholic vice in Muslims as being accepted by some societies, doctrine is often ignored in some religions. It should probably have been a "secret alcoholic" trait though. It would carry the regular penalty of being a bad commander and such but with the added problem of say, -8 piety or some such if discovered.

[Budwise]

The big problem with the inbred traits, IMO, is that they are all negative.

Yeah, that seems to be the big problem with todays culture, no cousin fucking. I stopped reading what you wrote after this because thats just too much to laugh about at one time, I can't wait to finish reading what you wrote. What possible thing could come from having sex with your mom; I guess you can make sure your children would look like your mom's side of the forkless family tree. Family reunions would be a whole lot more fun too huh, Aunt Sarah is a little hot in that dress, better slip her a rufie.

Plus, have you hugged your son today would mean a whole lot more. But in all regards, Americans have already tried all of this before, they live in Arkansas.

Lets face it, with family inbreding - the only castle you will have is

Now, if you can excuse me, I got to go knock up my sister.

[antisocialmunky]

Or like that one episode of the X-Files with the family of inbred people.

[Feanaro]

Lets face it, with family inbreding - the only castle you will have is

Strangely enough the English, Spanish, and French built rather large castles, despite well documented inbreeding. Ferdinand and Isabella were second cousins but, due to the constant inter-marriages of the houses of Aragon and Castile they were closer, genetically, than most second or first cousins. Inbreeding produces some nasty side effects but it also reinforces "good" genes.

[yesdachi]

I don’t think any of the factions religions would approve of many of the vices issued. Adultery, perversions, gambling, pride (that’s one of the 7 deadly right in the name!) are all bad and would probably lower you in the churches eye, regardless of what church.

However it does seem that Muslims are a bit stricter about their religion and wouldn’t often have much to do with a drunk general. I would just roll play it out as them being an addict to a more acceptable vice (like glue sniffing or whipits).

[Geezer57]

Much like the Bible's various (STUFF DELETED) not often in the meaning. I thought of adding all that after I posted that but I cannot find an edit button. Sorry for any confusion.

This forum is set up so that newcomers aren't able to edit their posts. After you've been here a while (about twenty posts, IIRC), the "EDIT" button will start appearing for you.

[antisocialmunky]

The bible states that drinking should be done in moderation. It even says that wine makes the heart of man rejoice. Just don't get slammed like Noah did that one time.

[Roark]

That time he slept with his daughter in Genesis?

Yeah, -8 piety ya dirty patriarch...

[Ciaran]

With both of them, actually, if I recall correctly.

However, I think the alcohol ban, as quite a lot of religious food laws, goes back to hygienic concerns and health preservation. In hot climates, for example, pig meat is highly likely to inhabit tracheae, which are quite lethal, especially if you don´t know about them, therefore the ban on hog meat both in islamic and jewish law. It´s similar to the ban of cow meat in hinduism.
And as alcohol acts dehydrating, it´s lethal in the desert.

[antisocialmunky]

That time he slept with his daughter in Genesis?

Yeah, -8 piety ya dirty patriarch...

No, that was Lot, Abraham's not horribly bright nephew. His daughters got him because they thought they were the last three people left on earth. After living through God turning the District of the Jordan(I can't recall with 100% where Sodom and Gomorrah) into a giant parking lot*, you can't really blame them.

Drinking was never banned under Mosaic law, only after the fall of the Levite priesthood would it have been banned by the Jewish Courts that replaced them. This is when alot of arab influences crept in.

Anyways...

*It should be noted that the area that is throught to have been home to Sodom and Gomorrah is covered in asphalt and submerged under the sea.

[Roark]

I just read the passage.

My Sunday School teachers seem to have kept me in the dark about a few things...