Social Peace

[Papewaio]

If you grant citizenship then there is a two way requirement.

One that the citizens will work for the betterment of the society.

The other the society will work for the betterment of the citizens.

So if there is a problem with immigration then one should look at both the selection of citizens and how that society then looks after their new citizens.

[Kagemusha]

I think that we have social peace here in Finland,because our ancestors shot all the communist at 1918,or put them on Concentration camps. Link

[Divinus Arma]

To answer the original Question:

I agree with most statements here on "The American Dream".

Franconious, you asked whether it was possible for someone living in a ghetto to break out. It happens, but the environment of the ghetto itself tends to keep many down. It is not the government, or society. It is the nature and nurture of being raised in a violent place lacking in social values, morals, and ethics. If you are taught to steal, then you shall steal.

But as for breaking out of poverty... I myself have dived in the trashcan looking for cans to recycle, because I had no money. I worked two very low paying jobs and had no car. I walked a very long way to my first job in the morning and took the bus back home, where I would catch a nap before walking to my second job at night. It was terrible. And it was also my fault. I dropped out of High School and had no skilled experience. I was directed otherwise, but I was fiercely independant.

But I broke out of that entirely on my own. I own a single family home in Southern California, vacation regularly, have a four year college education, little debt, and retain every chance to continue the positive momentum. I never blamed anyone but myself.

The poor are poor because of one or many of the following:

a. They have no social or moral values.
b. They have no natural ability or intelligence.
c. They lack vision and motivation.
d. They are unwilling to sacrifice now for greater gains later.
e. They made selfish decisions.


I do not pity the poor. I have been poor. They have an equal chance.

As for those with "old" money: Their family has worked very hard to secure the future of their children. And this trend has continued, so the family inherits and retains great wealth. We should all follow their example.

My children deserve a better future than the eight children of "Tyquandra" the crack whore. Why? Because I care enough to secure their future and wait until I am ready before having children. Unlike the crack whore.

[Sjakihata]

To answer the original Question:

I agree with most statements here on "The American Dream".

Franconious, you asked whether it was possible for someone living in a ghetto to break out. It happens, but the environment of the ghetto itself tends to keep many down. It is not the government, or society. It is the nature and nurture of being raised in a violent place lacking in social values, morals, and ethics. If you are taught to steal, then you shall steal.

But as for breaking out of poverty... I myself have dived in the trashcan looking for cans to recycle, because I had no money. I worked two very low paying jobs and had no car. I walked a very long way to my first job in the morning and took the bus back home, where I would catch a nap before walking to my second job at night. It was terrible. And it was also my fault. I dropped out of High School and had no skilled experience. I was directed otherwise, but I was fiercely independant.

But I broke out of that entirely on my own. I own a single family home in Southern California, vacation regularly, have a four year college education, little debt, and retain every chance to continue the positive momentum. I never blamed anyone but myself.

The poor are poor because of one or many of the following:

a. They have no social or moral values.
b. They have no natural ability or intelligence.
c. They lack vision and motivation.
d. They are unwilling to sacrifice now for greater gains later.
e. They made selfish decisions.


I do not pity the poor. I have been poor. They have an equal chance.

As for those with "old" money: Their family has worked very hard to secure the future of their children. And this trend has continued, so the family inherits and retains great wealth. We should all follow their example.

My children deserve a better future than the eight children of "Tyquandra" the crack whore. Why? Because I care enough to secure their future and wait until I am ready before having children. Unlike the crack whore.

This is the most selfish post I've seen in a long while. First, it's easy for you to come down hard on the poor, isnt it? Especially since you claim to have been there? Well, guess what, you wasnt even close to being poor. You had 2 jobs for crying out loud. The poor have no homes or jobs, thats being poor. And about the crack whore, well, why does her children not deserve a bright and hopeful future? Is it the childrens fault they are born into poverty, misery and addiction? Hell no. Where's the state to take care of them? And yes, this is exactly, in a civilized country, where the state should step in and pamper the children of a fx. crackwhore.

According to you, apparently (that's how I read it) they should just be stuck and live hopeless life -while your middle class kids can at least retain some hope, why is this fair?

Social peace my arse. I'll be the first to join the ranks if the US ever rebels against persons such as yourself.

[Divinus Arma]

This is the most selfish post I've seen in a long while. First, it's easy for you to come down hard on the poor, isnt it? Especially since you claim to have been there? Well, guess what, you wasnt even close to being poor. You had 2 jobs for crying out loud. The poor have no homes or jobs, thats being poor. And about the crack whore, well, why does her children not deserve a bright and hopeful future? Is it the childrens fault they are born into poverty, misery and addiction? Hell no. Where's the state to take care of them? And yes, this is exactly, in a civilized country, where the state should step in and pamper the children of a fx. crackwhore.

According to you, apparently (that's how I read it) they should just be stuck and live hopeless life -while your middle class kids can at least retain some hope, why is this fair?

Social peace my arse. I'll be the first to join the ranks if the US ever rebels against persons such as yourself.

Hmmm. Do I detect a little anger? Well, I'll not be angry in reply, since you have little knowledge of who I am, what I have been through, or what background I have. I might just have a little crack whore in me too, sonny Jim. Sure, I'm middle class now. But I have not always been so. It was through my own effort, and the mercy of God, that I am where I am.

So, do not jump to conclusions, fellow patron. If you want to blame somebody, you may blame yourself.

Should we pamper crack whore children? No. But we do provide an escape for them when they are ready to take it. It's called education. And each of us has an equal shot at getting one. Maybe not Ivy league, but an education either way. There are many kids who listen to the guiding and responsible hand of teachers and other alternative guiding hands (other than "tyquandra"). These children, raised in poverty, must only believe in the dream that these leaders try to share. Priests, ministers, educators, social workers, guidance counselors. If the young are prepared to accept responsibility for themselves, then they have a great future.

As for the very young, our authorities do what they can to remove these children from their dangerous environments. Those generous enough to be foster parents and adoptees may give these children the chance they deserve. It is not state given money that will save these kids, it is the loving hand of human compassion.

And my two jobs paid squat. I barely had enough to eat and I lived in an income restricted apartment complex filled with illegal immigrants and recovering crack addicts. If you made above a certain level, you could not live there. I am not asking anyone to feel sorry for me, and I have no reason to elaborate on how crappy my life actually got.

And why is it your poor people can't find work? Not enough jobs at fast food restaraunts? Or how about picking strawberries? Cleaning houses? Janitorial services? Lawn mowing and weed pulling? Oh thats right. These are the jobs that "no American wants". Because there is more dignity in taking welfare then cleaning toilets or picking lettuce.

My friend, you make little sense. But I hope I at least clarified my position.

[Papewaio]

No simple reality. If you look after your children they will be better off then relying on social welfare.

Even with access to free health and schooling, children will do better with involvement of their parents.

Relying on others to raise your children so you can pursue a life of self pleasure is the selfish option.

[Adrian II]

The "American Dream" can be achieved through hard work and doing for yourself and a family that supports you. What is the downfall of many is that they believe that the country "owes" them a successful life, programmed into them by their government dependent parents.

The American Dream obviously worked well for generations of Americans and immigrants, but its emphasis on rugged individualism is geared to world that is now nearly gone. The ' downfall of many' is caused by the complexity and interdependence of modern life, coupled with government withdrawal for various spheres. According to Jeremy Rifkin, who grew up on the American Dream and is still proud of it, that dream is proving ever more elusive: Americans are increasingly overworked, underpaid, squeezed for time and unsure about their prospects for a better life. He cites statistics that say one third of all Americans say they no longer even believe in the American Dream.

What would you say to that?

[Sigurd]

Personally I think that everybody is responsible for his life, too. However, I have some conditions:

1. There should be equal oportunities. A kid from a family man and woman who ruined their lifes (drugs, crime, ...) should have the same opportunities as a rich mans child. So I wish that there a good and free schools for everyone. Only teh capability should decide to what kind of school the kid goes.
2. There must be some social security. You can be unlucky und suddenly your in trouble and cannot help yourself. Then the society should help.
3. Everybody, even those who are poor by their own faults should be able to have a humane life - whatever that means.
4. Everybody should serve the society according to his abilities. So the strong and rich ones should pay more taxes than the others. That is just fair to me.

You will find that all these conditions are met in my nation... and will be even more so now that the people of Norway has elected a red-green government.
As a Blue (right) this means I'll have to pay higher taxes and possibly survive a increase in the interest rate.
Oh, it is so great living in the best country in the world (according to the UN fifth year in a row)...

[Franconicus]

Congratulation!

[Watchman]

Wealth redistribution and social-democratic policies dragged Finland from an agrarian backwoods into a first-rate wealthy "information society" in under fifty years. Along the way acute poverty (in the comparative international sense) apparently got, for a brief while, almost entirely eradicated.

Go fig.

That aside, by what counts exactly does the US of A have a "social peace" ? By what I know of the crime rates, prisoner numbers and sundry there - nevermind the pervasive sense of "fearing thine neighbour" I often get when speaking with Americans about, say, gun ownership - I sincerely doubt if it can honestly be called that. The Haves hide behind their guns and guards and alarms and law enforcement, the Have-Nots have thus far been too busy exploiting and brutalizing each other to organize revolts but that's about it.

Social peace ? In a ridiculously country armed to the teeth (which is supposed to add personal security), with more prisoners per capita than any three or four other countries combined, and nonetheless one of the, if not the, highest violent crime rates in the entire First World ? Plus something like sixty-per cent functional illiteracy rates and wealth distribution patterns more closely resembling Third World banana republics than First World postindustrialized states ?

If that counts as "social peace", what the Heck do you need to have not to have it ? A civil war or total anarchy ? Mind you, the cynics tend to point out something like that is going to be the end of the US anyway - it's not like it's going to fall to an outside attack, so that leaves rotting from the inside.

[PanzerJaeger]

Have you ever been to the United States, Watchman?

[Ser Clegane]

In a ridiculously country armed to the teeth

Are you talking about a "ridiculous country, ermed to the teeth" or a "country, ridiculously armed to the teeth"?
Just asking as I would consider the first one a tad offensive...

Otherwise I think you are painting an exaggerated picture here. It seems you are taking parts of the country (e.g., inner cities) and project what you find on the country as a whole.

BTW, just for my understanding, what do you mean by "functional illiteracy rates"?

[BDC]

Lots of people are illiterate here.

But they aren't immigrants or denied education or anything. They're just lazy.

So probably not a very good example.

[Watchman]

Eh, forgot a word from there for some reason. Brain fart. Insert "rich" after "ridiculously", and it'll make a lot more sense.

Have you ever been to the United States, Watchman?

Nope. Haven't had a reason. I'm working on comparative statistics, witness statements, broad currents accumulated from various sources, and good old-fashioned deduction here. Why do you ask ?
(And the sarcastic little prick inside me inquires if I would need to travel to Muslim countries to know the treatment of women over there sucks, too ?)

Otherwise I think you are painting an exaggerated picture here. It seems you are taking parts of the country (e.g., inner cities) and project what you find on the country as a whole.

Well, naturally. I'm not about to start comparing New York and East Lubbock, TX, here, nor am I by any stretch of imagination qualified to. What'd be the point ? The US of A is a big place. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned in modern states the equation is "city = about everything". Cities are where the majority of people live and work. Cities are what civilizations live and die by. Cities are where developements happen, and also where the frictions and problems of societies tend to be most starkly visible.

"Functional illiteracy", as far as I understand the term, means being either unable or unwilling to read, regardless of what your literacy level officially is. Put this way: if the sports section of the newspaper is the just about only thing you ever read, then you're essentially "functionally illiterate".

[PanzerJaeger]

Have you ever been to the United States, Watchman?

Nope.

That make sense. You did not portray the America I live in accurately at all. I am sitting in my house, in a big city, with my doors unlocked and my guns in the safe.

It seems you have taken the problems of the inner city and applied it to America, which doesnt surprise me considering some European media.

Come visit, its not that dangerous. Just stay out of the ghetto.

Oh, and plenty of people read.. lol.

[Watchman]

*shrug* Good for you. But might I point out it's not the better cases that are the concern, but the worse ? It's rather a small consolation for the inhabitants of the next burned-out "wretched hive of scum and villainy" of a ghetto over that you live in a safe area.

Besides, the thanks for the image go to a far greater extent to the American media...

[Meneldil]

That make sense. You did not portray the America I live in accurately at all. I am sitting in my house, in a big city, with my doors unlocked and my guns in the safe.

Sounds weird, with all the pro gun people here saying they're ready to use their guns to shot every single people stupid enough to ring at their door, or that gun is the only way to protect your freedom (huhu). It would almost sound like there were a dangerous gang of socialist native-afro-latinos in every street of the US

[Watchman]

That's one thing I've also noticed whenever I debate guns with American pro-gun types. Even besides the rhetoric, what their arguments to a large degree seem to convey between the lines is a palpable sense of fear. *Maybe* they're just trying to present the American society as more crime- and violence-ridden than it actually is to help justify gun ownership, but I somewhat doubt it - that basic idea gets too much flank support from too many unconnected sources to be dismissed so easily.

Plus the well-documented prisoners-per-capita ratio has to be an indication of something...

[PanzerJaeger]

Sounds weird, with all the pro gun people here saying they're ready to use their guns to shot every single people stupid enough to ring at their door, or that gun is the only way to protect your freedom (huhu). It would almost sound like there were a dangerous gang of socialist native-afro-latinos in every street of the US

Who is saying that?

Europeans seem to feel they are more "worldly" or well read about the rest of the world, but the common perceptions they hold about the US do not back that up. They can only thank the media for the vast, and sometimes outrageous, misconceptions they hold.

Come visit! Its not as you believe it to be. I can almost guarantee you wont be shot at...

[Watchman]

Uh, PJ ? I'm pretty sure I did mention "witness statements"...

[yesdachi]

That make sense. You did not portray the America I live in accurately at all. I am sitting in my house, in a big city, with my doors unlocked and my guns in the safe.

It seems you have taken the problems of the inner city and applied it to America, which doesnt surprise me considering some European media.

Come visit, its not that dangerous. Just stay out of the ghetto.

Oh, and plenty of people read.. lol.

Hey Watchman, PJ makes some really good points.

The majority of the population of the US comes from small to medium sized towns, the big cities are where all the action is and get lots of media but most of us live in boring “little” cities and our ghettos are nothing more than a few blocks of low income housing. I never have to use my gun to suppress the gangbangers so I can drive my MadMax style car thru an urban wasteland to get to work .

As far as reading goes, how many copies of Harry Potter were sold in the first 24 hours in the US?

You make some good observations, Watchman, but they really don’t apply to the whole of the US only the 1 or 2 cities in about 40 of the 50 states.

The US is a BIG country and very diverse from city to suburb to boonies. I think you would find a visit pretty interesting.

[Watchman]

Let me put it this way: after Katrina gangs of armed looters became such a problem the National Guard had to be sent in to suppress them so the relief operations could be carried out unhindered.

What, exactly, does that tell you about the country in general ? I can assure you we don't get those kinds of problems around here after natural disasters...

[yesdachi]

@ Divinus Arma – way to make the best of a tough situation.

Life has not been peaches and cream for me either but I made a personal choice to move out of the dead end town I graduated HS from and go make something of my life. I went into debt up to my neck but it has been worth it.

The choices I made are the same ones anyone could have made regardless of race or financial situation (it actually would have been slightly better to have been poorer, more financial aid available to lower income people for college). Some people choose to stay in a crappy life because they lack your mentioned a-e.

The only people I feel bad for in the US are mental handicapped; we do a poor job of helping them. But anyone else can get a job, there are job finding and training services that are free all over the country, and do something with their lives. There are lots of ways for people to make serious changes in their lives, mentoring programs, big brothers big sisters and the military are all totally easy ways that are very available. I am not sure how to fix some of the social issues we have but I am 100% comfortable saying people can get away from them if they want.

Anyway, cheers for making yours a better life.

[Meneldil]

Who is saying that?

Europeans seem to feel they are more "worldly" or well read about the rest of the world, but the common perceptions they hold about the US do not back that up. They can only thank the media for the vast, and sometimes outrageous, misconceptions they hold.

Come visit! Its not as you believe it to be. I can almost guarantee you wont be shot at...

Hehe, I'm pretty sure the same could be said about your perception of Europe ;)
I'd more than happily visit US one more time, since there are many things I'd like to see there(Among those was New Orleans )

I won't give name, but from some pro guns people's speechs, I had the feeling that you had to own a gun in order to go to the supermarket, or else you'd be raped/attacked/burnt/pillaged/looted.

[PanzerJaeger]

Let me put it this way: after Katrina gangs of armed looters became such a problem the National Guard had to be sent in to suppress them so the relief operations could be carried out unhindered.

What, exactly, does that tell you about the country in general ? I can assure you we don't get those kinds of problems around here after natural disasters...

Is that the simplistic viewpoint you were presented with over there? Things are all falling into place..

If you are attempting to make a value judgement of American society from the Katrina disaster, its important that you take a few things into consideration.

-Most of the city was evacuated before the hurricane.
-Those left were the poorest and most socially unstable.
-The prisons in the area were opened as they were filling up with water.

Now Ive never been to Finland, but I would wager that if you let your prisoners loose in an abandoned city, the same results could be expected. But maybe not, im not going to try and lecture on a place Ive never been to.

[Strike For The South]

Everyone in the us gets an equal shot contray to popular belif there is no man keeping the poor down most poor people are just lazy people in America if you work hard and bust your ass you will get where you want to go

[Kanamori]

Wouldn't you say a kid whose father runs a large business would have a much better chance to: get into a good school; have an "in" to other major positions in other large businesses; make a succesful business, because of the experience said kid has with business; etc., etc.? I think it is oversimplifying to say, "everyone has equal chance," or to say, "the poor have absolutely no social or economic mobility."

[Strike For The South]

Wouldn't you say a kid whose father runs a large business would have a much better chance to: get into a good school; have an "in" to other major positions in other large businesses; make a succesful business, because of the experience said kid has with business; etc., etc.? I think it is oversimplifying to say, "everyone has equal chance," or to say, "the poor have absolutely no social or economic mobility."

some cases yes but most no if the kid gets Fs in school he will find it a bit harder and I agree its not entirely fair but people can earn a decent living (most of the time) if they work hard

[Azi Tohak]

Wouldn't you say a kid whose father runs a large business would have a much better chance to: get into a good school; have an "in" to other major positions in other large businesses; make a succesful business, because of the experience said kid has with business; etc., etc.? I think it is oversimplifying to say, "everyone has equal chance," or to say, "the poor have absolutely no social or economic mobility."

Good school? Bad school? Schools here are what you make of them. You screw off, you go to a bad school. You go to a little town high school (hundreds of them in Kansas), and no, you won't get the same advanced placement oppotunities I had, but when you go to a University (and state universities are NOT prohibitvely expensive, especially with the vast amounts of aid available to poorer families [like me for example]. If you don't want to pay with your first born child, don't go to a private university), then everything will even out.

What is wrong with using contacts? I didn't have any, but I have made some. I refuse to believe that there some monolithic entity in the USA that keeps any person or group of people poor. You want something? Earn it.

This is the most selfish post I've seen in a long while. First, it's easy for you to come down hard on the poor, isnt it? Especially since you claim to have been there? Well, guess what, you wasnt even close to being poor. You had 2 jobs for crying out loud. The poor have no homes or jobs, thats being poor. And about the crack whore, well, why does her children not deserve a bright and hopeful future? Is it the childrens fault they are born into poverty, misery and addiction? Hell no. Where's the state to take care of them? And yes, this is exactly, in a civilized country, where the state should step in and pamper the children of a fx. crackwhore.

According to you, apparently (that's how I read it) they should just be stuck and live hopeless life -while your middle class kids can at least retain some hope, why is this fair?

Social peace my arse. I'll be the first to join the ranks if the US ever rebels against persons such as yourself.

And you know what? If you want a job here, all you have to do is find one. Maybe the job will suck, but there are always jobs available. And if you refuse to find a job, why should I be stuck paying for you? If you do not contribute (by doing anything that earns money, artist, writer, whore whatever), why do you think you are entitled to anything at all?

Yeah! Bleeding-heart exhibit #1: children. Social services will come for them as soon as Social services is notified. Then, the children will have the opportunity, paid for by me mind, of an education and a chance at a better life. Meanwhile the waste that was their mother will go to hospitals and try to go through rehab. Still, paid for by me. I would prefer she pay for her mistakes, but I don't get that choice,

And what is this? Is Sjakihata threatning another member? You would take away what Divinus has earned? What about what I have earned? Would you take that too? If you would, you are welcome to try.

Azi

[Kanamori]

Good school? Bad school? Schools here are what you make of them. You screw off, you go to a bad school.

So, you think that a public school in the inner-cities is going to get as much funding from their property taxes as a public school in rich suburbs? Initiative certainly plays a large role, trying to deny it would be stupid, but there is such a thing as opportunity too. For one, a reputable college would much rather have students from more reputable high schools.

You go to a little town high school (hundreds of them in Kansas), and no, you won't get the same advanced placement oppotunities I had, but when you go to a University (and state universities are NOT prohibitvely expensive, especially with the vast amounts of aid available to poorer families [like me for example].

Sorry, big companies would rather have someone from Harvard than from a State University. Harvard is more expensive than your state universities.

If you don't want to pay with your first born child, don't go to a private university), then everything will even out.

How many of the lawyers in the top firms of New York do you think aren't from a major law school? Now, don't blow-up I'm not saying you have to go to the big private schools to succeed, that would be ludicrous, I'm saying that you would tend to do much better if you went to one of them.

What is wrong with using contacts?

Nothing.

I refuse to believe that there some monolithic entity in the USA that keeps any person or group of people poor. You want something? Earn it.

I never said there was, and I agree with you. You are arguing against the strawman that I illustrated before. It isn't a simple idea, socio-economic mobility, there are many factors. Your success is not soley dependant on the effort you put in, like it or not.