Useless shipping!!!

[The Shadow One]

Okay:

I have played MTW for some time now without developing my shipping. Why? Because it doesn't work. I mean, it never works. Not even once. Not even on a bet. You don't get squat from your ports.

Maybe I have to one defective version of MTW. Maybe somewhere in my code, some drunk programer at CA decided to throw me a curve ball, just for laughs. But, that possibility notwithstand, I tried again today to build the Byzantine empire by using shipping.

I might as well have just cut my throat and let the blood run down the ground.

Yes, I did read the excellent article on MTW economics 101. Yes, I did develop my shipping by:

1. Building ships (I know this obvious, but just so you know I did it).

2. Linking my port in Constantinople with the Egyptian ports to the south east and the Italian/Slovakian ports to the West. I use shipping boats not warships and I took over twenty-one years to build a hefty navy.

3. I built a merchant on my end. I even advanced my merchant.

And I sat back and waited. You know, for the millions to roll in. HA!!!! After four full years -- almost a quarter of decade devoted to develping my shipping and I click on a port and how much do you think its making?

0. That's right. Nothing. Squat.

What a waste of @!#$#%&!! money!

What I am doing wrong? How the heck does shipping work in MTW???

[Graphic]

The way you describe it, it should be working. Maybe you're being blockaded by an enemy.

[The Shadow One]

It's the beginning of the game and I'm the only nation -- other than the Italians -- boats in the water.

[m52nickerson]

To make millions you need multiple ports bringing in trade. You also need to link to almost every other port on the map. Also remember you need unblocked lanes of trade. All it takes is one enemy ship to disrupt your whole net work. In my Polish game I have eight ports linked to every other port on the map and are bringing in about 10,000 florin profit every turn. So even with the mighty C you need more ports. You can also click on the economy page and check to see if you are bringing in trade profit.

[The Shadow One]

Okay, good points, all of them.

Let me it really clear. I had a port in the big C and another in Greece. Both states had merchants.

I had a boat on almost every part of the big Med west of Sicily and Malta. That means I had uniterrupted shipping between Egypt, which had a port, Tunisia, which had a port, and the two or three ports in the Agean.

And it wasn't that I was disappointed with how much I was making -- I wasn't making squat. Zip. No money in the port at all.

The only nation I was at war with was Turkey.

Okay, do you have to be allied with the nation to trade with them?

Do you have to establish some kind of trade agreement?

Do you have a special kind of boat?

Do you have click on their port or something?

Is there a magic password?

Seriously, five years after linking my ports in Greece and the big C, I still was making NO money and I was the only boat in the water.

[ShadowMagnet]

Mate, seriously, the last thing I want to do is patronise. But somehow it just doesn't seem likely for anyone to struggle to develop a strong trade network when playing the mighty Byz. I do not understand the problem. You have the boats, you have the ports, in peace with everyone. Definitely should work. Damn sure did for me.

[Come Together]

Well, if you REALLY want to build trading with ships, try to have a ship in most of the provinces with ports/tradable goods. You can check the money being brought in from trading by going to the economy tab, and clicking on one of the provinces doing the trading.

[m52nickerson]

You are not linked to enough foreign ports. Each port you are linked to will only give you around 25-50 florins a year per your ports. You need to make more ships and link to all ports on the map. All the way to Sweden. You don't need any special type of ships, and you don't need to be allied with faction to trade, but you can't be at war with them.

[Roark]

Just to make sure we've covered all bases:

You do know that Constantinople's adjoining sea-region is VERY tiny (ie: it isn't the one that is adjacent to Greece and Nicea.

[The Shadow One]

Okay:

I just tried again with the Danes. I built a network of barque's across the North Sea and the English Channel. I sacrificed the money I would have spent developing other things to develop this merchant navy.

I was the only boat to the east of Denmark/Sweden/Norway. The only port was Finland.

The French, of course, had a couple of boats. I took them out with my longboats and, of course, found myself at war with the French. Nice.

But I wasn't at war with England. And there were two English ports.

And I owned the seas.

I waited a couple of years, then clicked my port.

How much money to think it was generating? Anyone want to guess?

[The Shadow One]

Okay, I'll end the suspense.

0. That's right.

Okay, let's consider a couple of options. Is it possible that I'm making money and it's not recorded (thought the game) in the port information? So that, say, when click on Denmark, then click on the port icon (in the box that shows all the development for this country), and the informationn pops up, it doesn't show how much you're making?

To put it another way, that even if your port is making money, it looks like it's not.

Also, in the MTW Economics 101 essay, I was encouraged to develop my ports and shipping because I could live on them -- use the money to develop my agriculture and mines. But at 25 to 50 florien a port, it would take several hundred decades to develop my mines and agriculture.

[The Shadow One]

Just to make sure we've covered all bases:

You do know that Constantinople's adjoining sea-region is VERY tiny (ie: it isn't the one that is adjacent to Greece and Nicea.

Right, right. You have to have a boat in the small sea between the Aegean? and the Black Sea. It's almost like a pond, but Constantinople sits on it.

Yes, I did have a boat on that sea.

You know, there's gotta be something really obvious that I'm just missing here.

[The Shadow One]

Can someone do a favor for me?

Open a game that you're playing, one where you've developed your shipping trade. Then go to one of your ports (any country with a trade port). Click on the country, then click on the port. It should pull up one of the information boxes (scrolls, to be complete accurate). At the bottom it should tell you how much money your port is producing.

Screen capture it and post it for me.

Just so I can know that I'm not loosing my mind.

[m52nickerson]

What you are missing is numbers. Ok you had denmark for your port. Ok, so each port you can trace an unbroken line of ships to will give you a profit of about 25 (I think denmark only has one tradeable good) florins for each port you connect to. The English have two ports so that is only 50 florins.

If you click on the port it will not tell you how much income it is making. You have to click on the little money circle in the lower left hand couner of the screen. This brings up you economics screen. Now click on Denmark and a trade screen will come up. Here you will see how much you are making on exports to each of the English (or any other) ports you are connected to.

As I have said, the key to trading is to link to every port in the world, and stay at peace with people. With one port it will be hard, but if you link to 25 other ports that would be 625 florins, plus any bonus from your govenor.

[ichi]

I apologize in advance if my suggestions are too obvious, or if you have already tried them. Since you said that you are out of ideas, here's some of mine.

First, hold down the V key and look at hte sea regions. Those that are green should support trade. Red regions are blocked.

Second, instead of clicking on your port, click on the gold coins icon in the lower left. This brings up the province economy screen (yes I know you already knew that - I don't think you're stoopid). Click on the name of the province that you think should be producing trade revenue. This will open up sub-screen showing trade for that province.

I think that it is not the port that earns revenue, its the Merchant.

And no, you dont need a special kind of ship. All ships are warships; they dont carry trade goods, they protect shipping in the sea region.

Hope this helps. Good luck mate

ichi

[ichi]

LOL nickerson got it 2 minutes before I did. Simul-post LOL

At least we said the same things.

ichi

[m52nickerson]

This is the screen you need to be in. Then you can click on the name of a provence to see the shipping info.

If we said the same things ichi I know I'm on the right track.

[ichi]

Wow Nice Treasury mate!!

I rarely even come close to that much cash in 1400

ichi

[m52nickerson]

Thank you. I had ports exporting in all my sea povences, including Eygpt and Sicily, was at war with no one and had boats every were. Its was a good game.

[ajaxfetish]

Right-clicking on the port will only show you income from imports, which will be little or nothing. Export revenue can be seen by right-clicking on the trader/merchant/etc. (or looking on the economy screen) and should be much higher.

[EatYerGreens]

The one way to tell if there's a genuine bug in your copy of the game would be to see if the entry for 'local trade' was also zero.

Right clicking on a province where trading is going on actually brings up a pair of parchments, with the one on the left being the list of all provinces you are exporting to. You will also see imports listed here though this is more often by luck than judgement, when the AI is in charge of ship placement.

Incidentally, even landlocked provinces can have tradeable goods and, with these, the 'local trade' entry is all you'll ever see.

The biggest thing outside of your control is the number of ports which the AI builds for themselves. If you grow your fleet too big, too soon, you will end up paying more in maintainance costs than you generate in revenue. Expand your ships into new sea areas as and when other faction ports make it economic to do so.

The maintainance cost on a ship in the sea zone into which your port faces will be something like 15 per year. Two sea zones distant from home, it's 30 and so on. Foreign-owned ports do not reduce the cost back down. For Denmark, just 4 ships in Black Sea, Skagerrak, North Sea and English channel should see enough ports to soon repay your initial investment. Add another in Norway coast if you've captured Norway as well.

No one else has pointed out that you get no trade income from linking provinces that you own to other provinces that you own. Constantinople does not generate trade by linking to the port in Greece, for instance.

So, the more you conquer the world, the more your income will dwindle to just local-sales only. Each new war you start loses you a large source of revenue. It would therefore seem prudent to 'turtle' for a while, get a few hundred thou in the bank, like nickerson, then blitz the last third of the map against a negative cashflow and hope to finish before you finally go broke.

[ToranagaSama]

You guys have hit it right on the head. The poster is not clicking the icon with the "gold coins". One could also presume he hasn't clicked any of the other icons as well:

Coins: In addition to what the others have posted, double-clicking on a province will give a futher breakdown (I forget the specifics. Anyone??).

Crown: List your Princes and Princesses, as well as the Age of each. Also, the FIRST Prince listed is your *Heir*.

Dagger: List your Agents, including, Emmissaries, Assassins, Princesses, etc., to the left is *star* rating.

Shaking Hands: Lists all the Factions and their relationships. Here you can tell which factions are at war, allied, and so on.

Sword: I forget what this is for. Can someone else fill in. Thanks.

Also, clicking/double-clicking on a name of in one of the Lists will *highlight* anc center the screen upon that, Agent, Province, or Unit.

[Productivity]

I waited a couple of years, then clicked my port.

How much money to think it was generating? Anyone want to guess?

Uh, the port doesn't generate the money. The merchant does - click on the merchant and see how much it is generating.

[AggonyDuck]

Well the port might if someone was exporting to it...
The best that I've seen as port income is 47 florins...

[Ironside]

Well the port might if someone was exporting to it...
The best that I've seen as port income is 47 florins...

around 500.

Well I modded the game a bit so the unmodded value should be about 250.

[The Shadow One]

I apologize in advance if my suggestions are too obvious, or if you have already tried them. Since you said that you are out of ideas, here's some of mine.

First, hold down the V key and look at hte sea regions. Those that are green should support trade. Red regions are blocked.

Second, instead of clicking on your port, click on the gold coins icon in the lower left. This brings up the province economy screen (yes I know you already knew that - I don't think you're stoopid). Click on the name of the province that you think should be producing trade revenue. This will open up sub-screen showing trade for that province.

I think that it is not the port that earns revenue, its the Merchant.

And no, you dont need a special kind of ship. All ships are warships; they dont carry trade goods, they protect shipping in the sea region.

Hope this helps. Good luck mate

ichi

Okay, you've hit the nail on the head. I did NOT know about the V key -- thanks so much for that. I do now, thanks to you and others, know about the economy screen. And thanks for the ship info.

Actually, as I check the two games, I was making money -- just as much as I thought I would be.

Too bad.

[The Shadow One]

You guys have hit it right on the head. The poster is not clicking the icon with the "gold coins". One could also presume he hasn't clicked any of the other icons as well:

Coins: In addition to what the others have posted, double-clicking on a province will give a futher breakdown (I forget the specifics. Anyone??).

Crown: List your Princes and Princesses, as well as the Age of each. Also, the FIRST Prince listed is your *Heir*.

Dagger: List your Agents, including, Emmissaries, Assassins, Princesses, etc., to the left is *star* rating.

Shaking Hands: Lists all the Factions and their relationships. Here you can tell which factions are at war, allied, and so on.

Sword: I forget what this is for. Can someone else fill in. Thanks.

Also, clicking/double-clicking on a name of in one of the Lists will *highlight* anc center the screen upon that, Agent, Province, or Unit.

Well, actually, I have been clicking these icons. What I wasn't clicking was the actual line with the name of the province and how much income it was producing.

[Budwise]

Push "V" and see if your blocked, you should see nothing but miles of Green.

[EatYerGreens]

Sword: I forget what this is for. Can someone else fill in. Thanks.

Also, clicking/double-clicking on a name of in one of the Lists will *highlight* anc center the screen upon that, Agent, Province, or Unit.

Sword Icon: This brings up a list of your generals, their star ratings and the number of men in their stack. I say 'stack' but this can also mean single units.

On the economy screen:

In vanilla MTW you get a list of your provinces and the sea zones you have ships in but it's sorted alphabetically, including the sea zones. The result is a cludgy mix which you have to scroll through to find what you need to know.

In VI, this is much improved. All the provinces are alphasorted at the top, so you can quickly see how much income they generate and the maintainance cost of its garrison. The sea zones are neatly sorted down at the bottom of the list, so all the ship maintainance costs are collected together and easier to total up.


The 'double parchment' I referred to earlier is not, in fact, obtained by clicking on the province. As was stated by ichi, click the coins icon to bring up the economy screen, click on the name of the province in the list and, if trading is going on, you will see the extra parchment.

Something I only found out recently is that, when you do open up a province info parchment, clicking on the name of the governor centres the map on his location, which is handy if you like to keep yours on the move, instead of 'at home'.

Now, if only there was a list of unit leaders, sorted by acumen rating....

Hint for Byz trade out of the big C:
You have three trade goods here and stand to make a packet. Get a unit leader with at least acumen 4, make him Governor of Constantinople. Strip titles of the exiting holder, if need be. Build a Royal Palace *anywhere* in your empire. Assign the 'Constable of the Palace' title to the Gov of Constantinople, for an extra 2 acumen feathers. This represents around a 60% boost to both farm output and trade. That's a bigger increase than you'll get by upshifting from trade post to merchant, under a crappy governor. It's still 1000 for the palace, but before long, the boost will mean you'll be able to afford another 1000 on top, for the merchant.

[The Shadow One]

Everyone:

Thanks for the information. I actually stayed up late last night playing the Byzantines and, yes, I was able to establish a very active shipping economy [thanks, primarily, to the V key, which shows me where the holes are]. In fact, by 1145 I had a treasury of 135,000, I had taken Turkey, Egypt, and part of Asia, and everyone but the Huns wanted to be my friend.

Thanks again for the help.