Taking on the Horde - any tips?

[DensterNY]

Uhm... aside from Khazar which are the other provinces that the Golden Horde will appear in?

In my game its 1218 and I have about 6000 men stacked in Khazar and perhaps 3000 in Kiev. I threw a Hail Mary against the Hungarians, decimating them, and using the advantage of the sea hit the Egyptians in their weaker regions and caused a civil war. Now everything is devoted to producing Arbalesters, Halbardiers, Chivalric Sergeants & Men at Arms and also Chivalric & Feudal Knights to force the Horde. I've also been collecting extra Peasants to load the province and I figure by 1230 I should have 10k of them to load the region as well.

Damn, I hope I get a ridiculous turnout from the Golden Horde... this should be fun.

[dgfred]

Can't hardly wait! . About how many turns do you
usually play a night?

[antisocialmunky]

well youe couls use your general and if he gets reduced to a small number of men withdraw him from the field then your troops still retain the bonus' from his stars.

if he dies they lose this and would probably result in an instant rout. 8* would give them +4 marale which they would lose the instant he dies

No, that's 16 morale points, 2 for every star.

[Zarax]

Uhm... aside from Khazar which are the other provinces that the Golden Horde will appear in?

In my game its 1218 and I have about 6000 men stacked in Khazar and perhaps 3000 in Kiev. I threw a Hail Mary against the Hungarians, decimating them, and using the advantage of the sea hit the Egyptians in their weaker regions and caused a civil war. Now everything is devoted to producing Arbalesters, Halbardiers, Chivalric Sergeants & Men at Arms and also Chivalric & Feudal Knights to force the Horde. I've also been collecting extra Peasants to load the province and I figure by 1230 I should have 10k of them to load the region as well.

Damn, I hope I get a ridiculous turnout from the Golden Horde... this should be fun.

Thrash peasants, use at least vanilla spears as junk units... They can still help if the battle turns bad for you and makes decent arrow fodder

If I play as the Hungarians there are usually around 6-8k spears ready to support the heavies, they saved my butt more than once...

[Geezer57]

No, that's 16 morale points, 2 for every star.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work quite that way - there was an earlier thread here that strongly indicated that the valor increases gained by command stars don't give your men any extra morale. The only morale increases a General gives to his men are those due to proximity - see the Numerology thread here: http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...tart=1&stop=20

In other words, +1 for every command star if within 50 meters, +1 for every 2 command stars if further than 50 meters. So for example, your FMAA has an unmodified valor of zero, so his base morale is 2, with attack 3 and defense 2. With an 8-star General, his valor will climb to 4, raising his attack to 7 and defense to 6, but his morale will only go to 10 (8+2) if he's w/in 50 meters of the General. If outside the 50 meter radius, morale would be 6 (4+2), and if the General were to withdraw from the battle (not routed or killed) the morale would be back to base 2.

There are no "double bonuses" for morale from a General - you can't get morale boosts both from valor increases due to command stars and more morale boosts from proximity.

[antisocialmunky]

Bleh, you're right.

I was thinking about command stars instead of valour points. This means that from a 8 star general all the units in the army with have a 4 valour bonus, meaning +8 morale points from the general's valour or +4 depending on where.

At any rate the penalties involved are still mean for dead generals:

-8 Morale immediately following General's death (temporary)
-2 Morale permanently following General's death (does not impact Elite or Disciplined units)

[bretwalda]

and if the General were to withdraw from the battle (not routed or killed) the morale would be back to base 2.

just making sure I understand it correctly: if you voluntarily withdraw your general you LOSE any advantage gained by the presence of the general (e.g.: extra valor)

Do you also lose vices as well this way?

[DensterNY]

Can't hardly wait! . About how many turns do you
usually play a night?

Unfortunately, dgfred since I own most of the map and have production of key troops all over the place, garrison armies to move out of conquered but now secured provinces and some sieges left to mop up a few remaining Egyptian provinces I can play maybe 2 or 3 turns at max. And that's at least 2 hours... its gonna be slow going but in 2 more years there will be no one left on the map to pose a threat so I can be free to fully concentrate on resisiting the Horde.

At a pretty rough estimate I have perhaps 13,000 good troops to place in Khazar and up to 6,000 junk guys like outdated fyrdmen and urban militia. Damn, I was organizing each category of fighting unit into their own stacks and I had over 4 full stacks of Arbalesters, crossbowmen and longbowmen. The rest are knights, chiv. MAA, billmen, Halbardiers and some FMAA.

Oh, thanks to you guys regarding the discussion on generals... I have a good 8 star that's gonna lead the resistance so I'll make sure to keep him right behind my line.

[econ21]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work quite that way - there was an earlier thread here that strongly indicated that the valor increases gained by command stars don't give your men any extra morale. The only morale increases a General gives to his men are those due to proximity.

Hmm, I'll have to dig out that thread, as it is contrary to my experience. I remember fighting a monster Byzantine general - 8 stars - who had no bodyguard. The AI always retreated him off the battlefield as soon as hostilities commenced. (Good AI programming there, as I was really gunning for him. ) But his armies still seemed to fight like tigers without him. Maybe they were just benefiting from the higher attack due to his command stars? But my observation was that his presence (in the stack, if not the battlefield) made his lowly slav warriors rip through my experienced AUM.

[Geezer57]

just making sure I understand it correctly: if you voluntarily withdraw your general you LOSE any advantage gained by the presence of the general (e.g.: extra valor)

Do you also lose vices as well this way?

No, you'll still keep the extra attack and defense factors from the General's command stars after he withraws, but (since command star valor bonuses don't give morale increases) you won't keep the morale gained due to proximity to the General.

I don't really know about the vices & virtues - hopefully one of the "experts" will address that issue.

[Geezer57]

Hmm, I'll have to dig out that thread, as it is contrary to my experience. I remember fighting a monster Byzantine general - 8 stars - who had no bodyguard. The AI always retreated him off the battlefield as soon as hostilities commenced. (Good AI programming there, as I was really gunning for him. ) But his armies still seemed to fight like tigers without him. Maybe they were just benefiting from the higher attack due to his command stars? But my observation was that his presence (in the stack, if not the battlefield) made his lowly slav warriors rip through my experienced AUM.

Probably due to the extra attack and defense factors: a Slav Warior with +4 attack and +4 defense can be pretty impressive, and remember there's a morale boost just from winning, outnumbering, etc.

[crpcarrot]

No, that's 16 morale points, 2 for every star.

my mistake thanks

er edit: eeerr am i right or wrong??

[antisocialmunky]

Partially, I was wrong because my brain confused stars with valour. Read the otehr stuff for more info.

[Blodrast]

that is also the way I know it: troops retain the +attack/defense bonuses, but not morale bonuses. AFAIK, they do not retain bonuses from VnV's after the general withdraws.

[King Kurt]

Quick update - the Crusade for Kiev has been launched - looks tasty with a couple of Knights Templars, about 5 Feudal Knights, some halbards. I threw in a young 5 star ambitious prince as well. In about 2 years it should, accompanied by all my "Eastern Front" armies, start sweeping over to Kiev. To top it all, regular little Byzant revolts are giving me the opportunity to bribe a few Varangians - a Varangian, bill, longbow combo backed by a few knights looks like fun - roll on 1230.