Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
I thought wedge was supposed to reduce your unit's defence score quite significantly?

On the other hand, wierd things do happen when wedge meets something in square. The square unit comes to a halt and its front row fights just the man at the sharp end of your wedge. If he dies, others take his place but basically, much of the front row of the square unit comes to a halt and sits idle while the fight between unit leaders takes place, whereas it should be dozens of combats at a time. I can see how, even at the cost of weakened defence factors, it can prolong the meleé for quite some time, as your attrition rate is vastly slowed down. I shall have to try this for myself.

Presumably you have to be careful what unit you choose to do this. Some might panic if their captain gets killed and others aren't too fussed.
Hey, from me to you, I would take all statistical (Unit Stat, etc.) analysis with a grain of salt. In my experience, there are the Stats, and then there is real world gameplay.

In my observation, there are basically two types of TW players. The first, what I term the Statisticians, and the second, what I like to self-grandizingly call the Players.

Statisticians, also are of two types, the most familiar are the ex-RTS players. In most RTS, the "Stats" are all there is to the game. Know the in and outs of the Stats, and, generally, you will be successful. Other than little game exploits, knowing the Stats is ALL important.

Statisticians will learn and quote EVERYTHING there is regarding *Unit Stats*, and tend to play the game 'to the Stats', if you get my drift. They look at a unit of Spears, they don't see a unit of spears, they see a unit of Stats.

The second Statitician are the ole *super* Grognards. I believe these players *grew-up* playing the old *boardgames* that were completely based upon Staticial modeling. Unlike RTS, I don't believe that there were any *game exploits* to askew the inherent Statisical view to gaming.

I believe that both types of Staticians, consequently, bring an over-emphaisis upon the Statistical, that is Unit Stats to their TW gaming. By doing so, imo, they limit themselves from discovering the more *Open* nature of TW gaming, brought about by the incorporation of MANY, what I'll term, "battle intangibles", by CA.

There are just too many battle intangibles, as well as, many ways to utilize such intangles, which mitigate the unit stats----TOO many!!

Players, on the other hand, forego the stats, I choose to ignore them virtually completely, and prefer the ole *Trial and Error* method. Rather than studying the Stat files---I play the game! I have played both STW, and particularly MTW too much. Experimenting, trying different Tactics and Strategies, discovering what works and what doesn't. Never using Custom Battles!!! Never examining the unit stats! I read the manual, to the degree I'd have much of it memorized, and I read the Org.

One of the aspects that GREATLY attracted me to TW were all the 'battle intangibles" that weren't existant in RTS games. I spent a great deal of time learning to utilize the intangibles in EVERY sort of battle situation. I was obssess with becoming a great Campaign MP player. Unfortunately, Campaign MP was never brought to fruition, despite the PROMISES of The Creative Assembly.

Lastly, yes, I ONLY use Wedge for Spear units in MTW. In STW, I would often use, I belive they are callled *No Dachi*. Not the specifilized red colored units, but the other specialized defensive unit. They were very slow and very hard. Anyway, if you know which I'm talking about, I sometimes use these in Wedge formation too. I seldomly put Swords in Wedge, and like I said NEVER Cavalry!!! Which I think is nonsensical. jmo.



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That said, and with the above view, MY experience in using the Wedge formation does not support the contention in your question. My experience is the opposite! Wedge formation is best used defensively!! I've stated MANY times going WAY back that a SINGLE unit of Spears in Wedge Formation, Hold Formation, Hold Position, can defend, that is Stand and Hold against a Knight unit.

By way of an example, I prefer "in-battle" experiments, as opposed to Custom battles, but however you may, take a Peasant unit and defend against a Knight unit, Close Formation, plus whatever other formation/position choices you choose. I think you will be surprised. Then put the Peasant as I've instructed above. Note the difference. Try it again with simple non-peasant Spear units, the results s/b notedly better.

In the end, the Knight unit should when the skirmage, but at what cost? Being whittled away by 50% or worse? By a PEASANT unit on *Wedge*? Or a low-level Spear unit? The cost/benefit factor scores a win for the Peasant/Spear unit. In fact, I HAVE won with both against a Knight unit.

Though, most normally, an AI Knight unit will spring from nowhere (probably due to inattention) to attack your rear area or a weak spot in your Line, and all you may, momentarily, have is a Peasant or low-level Spear unit. Throw the unit into Wedge, Hold Position, Hold Formation, and pray to HOLD! It will hold, just long enough to find another unit to flank and destroy the attacking Knight unit.

This is how *I* utilize Wedge formation to great effect; different than most, but then so is my overall battle style. I've NEVER used Cav in Wedge as too many FAQs suggest. In fact, I disdain the notion, and simply don't comprehend why a player would take a unit of expensive Cav and smash them into a wall of units, wedge or no wedge; but then I play with a SP/Campaign approach, not a MP approach. Gotta be wary of FAQs and Statistician analysis, as most of it is toward MP, which is QUITE different than (non-cheesy) SP.

Just my view point.

BTW, do you have your STW manual handy? I don't. The MTW manual states:

...The wedge can be useful when charging into a melee to force a way into an enemey unit.
Could you or someone quote what it states in the STW manual regarding Wedge formation. I suspect it may be a bit different.

Oh, if you want to see some old screenshots of my battle formation, I've got them. Shortly, after I came back to MTW, I discovered a gigabyte sized cache of old screenshoots on one of my HDs. Great pictures of how I used to use Wedge, and how I learned and evolved my Formation. I intended to make a tutorial, but never completed it.

TS