Bridge Battles, Yea or Nea

[lugh]

As I understand it it was used (primarily by cavalry) to dig into a unit from the front and then "explode laterally," effectively flanking it from within without having to get around the side. But in the game the wedge just stops when it hits and becomes pretty useless after that. Oh well.

I don't know about that. the effects aren't always spectacular but they certainly disrupt the enemy lines more than a flat fronted charge, important if you're out-maneuvred and have no choice but to stall their line with a frontal charge.
If you want spectacular though, charge teched up Lancers downhill into pretty much any unit and you'll see the enemy formation burst apart. You need to time the change in formation back to tight though.

[crpcarrot]

All I know is that in MP bridge battles suck and only noobs play them It never ceases to amaze me how many of you have never tried MP. It blows sp away and is the reason VI is the best war game in the world.

i tried several times to get on gamespy but for some reason it never accepted my serial number or somehting this was back when i had only dial up i was so pissed off i never tried again. maybe its time for me give it another go

Edit: i usually have a2-4 cats when defending a gridge and set them up straight in line with the bridge. the ai will at most times atart forming up its troops so they can start crossing the bridge unit at a time. so i usually just aet my cats off fire at will and target the first unit. its fun watching those bolders bouncing away though the lined up units and very staifying to know they for once made maximum kills instead of sailing right over the target and bouncing away harmlesly.

[EatYerGreens]

Wedge is only good on the charge and shouldn't be left in prolonged melee due to the defense penalty and the surrounded on three sides penalty for the man in front.

That's about it. Though... a while ago, I wrote some conjecture on whether or not it's possible to use wedge to attack seems between two units to get flanking bonuses for the wedge unit. If anything comes of that, I'm sure it would be interesting.

I can recall being in that thread. I recall speculating about whether a wedge is regarded as being two flanks and a rear (not good!) or two 'fronts', a rear and NO flanks!

The latter would be handy and might explain the need for a defence modifier, to stop it being unacceptably strong. I guess the idea is to encourage the player to do it the way it would have been done, historically - appropriate formations for particular circumstances. Defence in wedge a no-no, maybe?

It does make sense that the wedge grinds to a halt if it meets a square in a head-on clash. After all, why sould one man on his own have any more rank-penetrating power than himself and a dozen or so companions in a long line?

On the other hand, if aimed at the gap between units in a line, the man at the sharp end doesn't meet opposition and carries on going until his companions in the rear ranks 'catch' on the flanks of the units either side. Give or take the difficulties in computing the effect of one unit suddenly in meleé against two other units simultaneously, flanking bonus might indeed count in that situation. Naturally, one wouldn't be attempting to shoot the gap until the units on either side were being kept busy by frontal engagements you ordered two of your own units to make.

I can only speculate about whether sending a wedge into the flank of a pre-engaged unit in square will have the wedge slicing between the ranks, possibly causing the recipient to lose its rank bonuses and slicing it neatly in half. Loss of formation has a morale penalty in itself and the front ranks will be trapped between the frontally hitting unit and the wedge. Locally, some of its men will be being hit from the rear...


@ToronagaSama. When you said *No Dachi*, did you actually mean Naginata? Polearms, good defence and stuff like that? I've seen reference to another unit called 'Kensai' but I think that's from Mongol Invasion and my copy is still in its shrink wrap at the moment... oops!

I take your points about stats obsession and I'd style myself as the 'player' type. My increasing interest in stats is only in pursuit of finding out why my attempts to use what I thought the tactics of the time consisted of sometimes fail spectacularly.

[ToranagaSama]

After all, why sould one man on his own have any more rank-penetrating power than himself and a dozen or so companions in a long line?

My sentiments precisely!

I can only speculate about whether sending a wedge into the flank of a pre-engaged unit in square will have the wedge slicing between the ranks, possibly causing the recipient to lose its rank bonuses and slicing it neatly in half. Loss of formation has a morale penalty in itself and the front ranks will be trapped between the frontally hitting unit and the wedge. Locally, some of its men will be being hit from the rear...

My sentiment has always been that Cav are just to valuable to waste in this way. (Of course, unless you're playing RTW with its SUPER Cav!!) Yet, there are times when you just have NO other choice.

@ToronagaSama. When you said *No Dachi*, did you actually mean Naginata? Polearms, good defence and stuff like that? I've seen reference to another unit called 'Kensai' but I think that's from Mongol Invasion and my copy is still in its shrink wrap at the moment... oops!

YES! Naginata. Thanks.

Very nice *hard* units. Extremely effective if used properly. Saved my bacon many a time.

Oh brother, Kensai, the mother of all CHEESE units. The road to RTW begins with these guys. The first cheesy unit CA created; or did the Ninja have this honor? Both smell like Limburger....

If you ever go back to Shogun, make sure you load up MI. It had some nice improvements, though nothing you haven't seen already in MTW.

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@lugh

I don't know about him but I know when I use it.
Mainly when you've horse archers in two ranks being approached from different angles. The line is too long, and if the troops on the flank get caught in a melee, it can pull the whole unit in if you're not quick enough, and besides that can give the other enemy unit time to close in

Ahhh....

Nice! I'll have to remember that.

Though, I learned some time ago, and try hard to adhere to, ALWAYS have a *protector* unit guarding your HA and Fast Cav (til ready to charge).

Putting your HA out to the *far* flank, planning to move them around to pummel the AI's rear? Don't mov them alone, take a unit of spears (peasants will do) with them.

[lugh]

Ahhh....

Nice! I'll have to remember that.

Though, I learned some time ago, and try hard to adhere to, ALWAYS have a *protector* unit guarding your HA and Fast Cav (til ready to charge).

Putting your HA out to the *far* flank, planning to move them around to pummel the AI's rear? Don't mov them alone, take a unit of spears (peasants will do) with them.

I never heard of that and to be honest I don't see the untility of it. One it takes a unit that would be better placed on the battle line or as another HA. Does it not slow you up a lot? Part of the appeal of HA for me is that they're so fast, even if the enemy sends some light cav after you, if you're paying attention you can get the HA out tof the way, even lead their cav back to your lines and let them get shot up.

As far as I know, medievally speaking at least, the wedge was mainly psychological. The most heavily armoured men were in the front,and the entire idea was to disrupt the formation so that the infantry, following after the cav could more easily get past the spears. (horses may not like running into a wall of spears, but men don't particularly like it either)
If you think about it, the first man probably doesn't actually engage a front row trooper, he pushes through (or more accurately the horse knocks a few men out of the way) and the other men engage the first row. Or the first knight pushes through to the third rank etc etc. If youy haven't been around horses much, I can understand not seeing how a unit could punch into a formation so deeply.
That said, MTW doesn't recreate things perfectly, knights didn't always use a charge, the extra length allowed them to sweep the flanks of a formation, picking off troopers individually, without being engaged by the formation.

edit: if you're still not convinced it was a legit tactic, Alexander's Thessalian cav used a wedge (the Companions used a diamond at times) and Tacitus (I think) used infantry wedges against the Germans to good effect.