Federal judge declares Pledge unconstitutional

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Really? Where's all that text that says so? Establishment of Religion means just that. An Establishment of Religion. Any Establishment of Religion.

OK exactly what constitutes the establishment of a relgion?

[GoreBag]

By "clansman", you both mean "klansman", right? Just clearing this up.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:
When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates. They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.

To imagine suggest anything else is assinine.

The Myth of the Separation of Church and State

[Red Harvest]

It's good that we have Gawain to determine what Jefferson meant, and the Constitution.

One thing is clear to me. Religion and government don't mix, and should be kept separate. One of the great advances of the last few centuries has been in separating one's church from one's government. The alteration of the pledge is a textbook example of a change being made for religious reasons. It's backers wanted to display their religious beliefs in comparison to the atheist communist regime. If they had chosen Allah, Buddha, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Christians would be screaming to have it changed. If it said the state was more important than God, we would also scream. That's why that First Amendment is there, to prevent things like that from happening.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Religion and government don't mix, and should be kept separate.

But what the bloody hell does that mean?

Can a law be passed that had religious basis?

The Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" - and we have laws to that effect. To completely seperate religion and government, must we remove laws prohibiting homicide, which is prohibited by several religions?

[Red Harvest]

But what the bloody hell does that mean?

Can a law be passed that had religious basis?

The Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" - and we have laws to that effect. To completely seperate religion and government, must we remove laws prohibiting homicide, which is prohibited by several religions?

I don't see a need for a religious basis for prohibiting murder, theft, etc. You are going out in left field on something that has nothing to do with the topic. You are in effect saying that with your interpretation we could not have any laws that *coincided* with any religious laws.

"Under God" is superfluous to the pledge. It is not necessary when pledging allegience to the nation and flag. In fact, when those of other faiths (or lack thereof) make the pledge it would seem meaningless. Should they be denied a pledge that respects their faith (or lack thereof?) It's a rather simple case of one religion being elevated over others. However, I keep in mind this is about symbolism. Never get between the religious right and their empty symbolism.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It's good that we have Gawain to determine what Jefferson meant, and the Constitution.

I dont think Jefferson wrote the first amendment. His letter on seperation of church abd state had nothing to do with the consitution. I explained what it was a bout.

One thing is clear to me. Religion and government don't mix,

Again the founding fathers thought just the opposite and since it was they who wrote the constitution I will go by their views not yours thank you. They know that a good religous base is neede for democracy to work. They believed that government should be a last resort to solving problems not the first. They didnt want a "CHURCH" making laws. Chritains do not constitute a church.

[Xiahou]

All nice and cheery, Gawain, but the Constitution says what it says, and the Supreme Court has ruled on the finer points. So, to be fair, you are the one saying things that are asinine.

So what happens when the Supreme Court overturns this latest decision?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Pretty much zero chance of that happening. I doubt even the most liberal justices have the stones to declare the Pledge unconstitutional. Certainly nowhere near enough of them for a majority.

Remember, the 9th circuit has already ruled it unconstitutional.

Crazed Rabbit

[Xiahou]

Remember, the 9th circuit has already ruled it unconstitutional.

Crazed Rabbit

Yeah, the 9th Circuit- the most overturned of the circuit courts. Honestly, the only way it will stand is if the schools don't appeal it all the way up.



Edit: By liberal justices, I meant SCOTUS justices- just to be clear. The 9th Circus is capable of anything.

[Xiahou]

Then the SCOTUS has spoken, now hasn't it?

Along with almost 9 out of every 10 Americans.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

One thing is clear to me. Religion and government don't mix,

Nor do they care. They just like it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Thanks to the wonderful propaganda effort by people like yourself, who seek to discredit the perfectly valid and perfectly constitutional "Wall" between church and state.

Except its not there. Maybe you wish it were but that does not make it so.

It shows a disrespect for the constitution, and a desire to promote your own religious agenda.

No it shows your lack of respect for the constitution . Either that or your lack of knowledge about it or american history. By the way I have no religous agenda. I hate organised relgion and have stated it ad nauseum

Pull the whole "The founding fathers say otherwise!" thing all you like, but SCOTUS and the Constitution have spoken on that matter.

SCOTUS also upheld slavery. Does that mean the constitution does? No where in the constitution is their any mention of seperation of church and state nevermind a wall. In fact the phrase came from a preacher.

While I agree the issue named by the original poster is silly, that is no less silly than violating the constitution to add the "God Blurb" to the Pledge just for the sake of some international pissing contest with Russia.

The god blurb does not violate the constitution. Making it against the law to add or say it certainly does violate the constitution.

[Xiahou]

It shows a disrespect for the constitution, and a desire to promote your own religious agenda.

That's very much in the eye of the beholder. I could easily apply the same statement to you.

You seem to forget the fact that 'seperation of church and state' is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution. In fact, Congress has opened each session with a prayer since its founding and our courts have a long history of invoking God and, of course, swearing on a bible. The text of the Constitution is quite clear...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;