Federal judge declares Pledge unconstitutional

[khelvan]

I don't understand what is so upsetting about this. To this uninformed person, the "separation of church and state" has benefitted both church and state. The Church of England seems to be much less strong in England than Christianity is in the United States. This separation seems to benefit all parties.

Why does anyone get upset that a policy which has allowed the church to survive and thrive in this nation be upheld?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why does anyone get upset that a policy which has allowed the church to survive and thrive in this nation be upheld?

What policy would that be? Its the first amenment that protects religion here. The seperation crap does just the opposite. Again no where is this mentioned in the constitution. Once mopre the founding fathers considered this a christian nation and dont try to feed me that treaty of tripoli crap. Its easily rebuffed.

[khelvan]

Once mopre the founding fathers considered this a christian nation and dont try to feed me that treaty of tripoli crap. Its easily rebuffed.

I see, so what the "founding fathers" wrote, from what you say earlier, allows us to understand exactly what they wanted, except when it disagrees with your pet theory?

[Redleg]

It really is a non-issue. So what if a judge declares the Pledge unconstitutional - it has absolutely no bearing on matters in the nation. The pledge is not a requirment of citizenship imposed on us by the government.

If a school wants to say the pledge of alligence - so what. If a school doesn't want their students to say the pledge of alligence - so what.

1) The founding fathers would of laughed this off. Many of the founding fathers would of scoffed at the idea of a pledge of allegience.

2) Schools for the most part are managed by the county or school district - not by a Federal Mandated system. What each school does or doesn't do is actually more around what the state requires of it - then Federal oversite. This seems to be more of someone wanting to make a Federal Issue of something that is really only a local issue.

3) If your school district wants you to say the pledge in class and you don't want to say it - then its unconsitutional. However if the school recites the pledge and gives you the option to say it or not - then its really not unconstitutional by the standards of the constitution as it is written.

4) Seperation of church and state is not written in the consitution its based upon writtings of Thomas Jefferson - one of the main contributors to the drafting but not the sole one. The constitution only states what it does in the 1st Amendment - in the freedom of speech - freedom of religion statements made. Varying interpations are available - however most that say its unconstitutional are really not refering to the constitution itself - but to papers and letters written by Thomas Jefferson only.

5) Again the pledge would only be unconstitutional if your forced to say it.

[Slyspy]

As a Brit I am looking forward to seeing whether the Christian or secular fundamentalists win this one. According to the people on this forum the States are awash with both these groups and at any moment the old system will be swept away and a new order established. Presumably this will involve the destruction of the tolerant and democractic country we now see but, ah well, so long as the fools in this world get what they want....

I intend to profit from these epic powerstruggles over the inclusion of two words in an oath which doesn't have to be taken and therefore has no meaning anyway. This I shall do by selling kindling, whether the fires are to be set for the burning of heretics or for the burning of Bibles.

[Proletariat]

5) Again the pledge would only be unconstitutional if your forced to say it.

Bravo. Precisely what I tried but failed miserably to get out yesterday.

The thread can pretty much be locked now.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Again the pledge would only be unconstitutional if your forced to say it.

And this is why his ruling will definetly be overturned. All those of you who want it gone dont stand a chance. Again the mention of God in no way establishes a religion. Belief in god is not a religion and therefore the mention of god cannot be seen as establishing a religion.

On the matter of them adding this becaiuse of the cold war. It wasnt just symbolic. We then truly believed we were a christain nation and that the Russians were doomed and bad because of their lack of belief. Also lost in this little debate is the fact the the US indeed was one nation formed under god from the get go.