Lancer or Gothic Knight?

[|C|Gaheris_I]

Hello all,
i am new to this forum and would like to ask any mtw players this question. Do you prefer Gothic knights or Lancers???

Personally Lancers are my favourate, but i only play mp...so they are good for swiping etc...
where as the gothic knights are slow but pack a punch.
i prefer speed...what do you think???

[Knight Templar]

Tehnically:

C-charge
At-attack (melee)
D-defense
Ar-armour

Got knights- C 4, At 4, D 7, Ar 9, speed (march, run, charge) 9,12,16
Lancers- C 8, At 5, D 7, Ar 9, speed 9,20,22

Lancers have a bit better characteristics, they're faster and have better attack, can be trained in already in high period. However, GK are better against heavily armoured units. So, I think they're equally excellent

[econ21]

I agree with Gaheris_I, I'd go for the speed of the lancers.

However, I must confess I find the unit very irritating.

Firstly, it makes no sense that it is faster than the GK when their armour is the same.

Second, it appears an era too early (IIRC, High rather than late).

And thirdly, it is available to the Spanish, who if anything tended to have rather lighter armoured knights than, say, the English or the French, who are strangely restricted to having Chivalric Knights.

I wonder has anyone done a "Rome Total Realism" or EB type mod for MTW that gets rid of this kind of aberration? I know WesW has done a lot of unit changes with his MedMod, but at least initially his priority was gameplay rather than historical accuracy.

[|C|Gaheris_I]

Thank you for those comments. I look forward to see what you other mtw fans think

[Dutch_guy]

Well prefer Lancers, have more experience with them than with GK.

@ Simon , don't recall hearing about a Realism mod for MTW, but I don't really have a good opinion on any MTW mods since I don't have the VI expansion yet

[|C|Gaheris_I]

yes could i have the address to that site as well please ??

[ah_dut]

Lancers are probably superior. But for pure slogging value, in my opinion little beats gothic foot knights. Bring em on

disclaimer: only works agaisnt opposing infantary or cav in forests

[TosaInu]

Lancers are only available in MP high era in original MTW. They've been moved to late MP era in the VI expansion after several requests to do so.

I'm going to move on a slippery slope now. Talking about the speed of the unit, armorlevel and realism:

-The horse breed could be stronger and faster allowing to carry a heavier knight.
-The materials used for the full-plate could be of better quality, allowing for a better protecting armour at reduced weight. Steel is slightly lighter than iron (kg/m^3), but steel is stronger than iron. So, a steel suit would be lighter than an iron/early steel one, because less metal would be required for the same strenght. (Better) steel is what came available in 14/15th century. Toledo is famous, even today.

[TosaInu]

Aren't we talking about the mounted mace using Gothic Knights?

[phred]

but I don't really have a good opinion on any MTW mods since I don't have the VI expansion yet

Sorry, off topic but
The Patrician mod was made for plain MTW (pre-VI)
Its fun for a while. It's an ancient Rome mod.
here's a link http://dlx.gamespot.com/dl.html?id=6093031

[ichi]

Lancers are tough and can beat other cav one on one, but the Gothics armor-piercing mace allows GKs to take out Lancers.'

Gothics are slow, but so are Kats and Camels. Set a unit of Gothics on your flank on Hold Form and you will have some time before they collapse, even if that side gets swamped.

Lancers seem to be better attackers than Gothicsdue to their speed and higher att bonus.

Online Lancers can be deadly, but the consensus is that Gothics beat Lancers.

ichi

BTW One of the reasons that VI eliminated swiping is because it was seen as an exploitation of a game flaw. I wont go so far as to call swipers 'cheaters'. Anybody can swipe so I guess its not cheating to swipe, but . . .

I've seen a 1 rank deep unit of gothis cut through a unit 3 deep, which isnt realistic. The use of swiping requires that you try to trick the computer and gain an advantage that A) the bulk of the MTW community feels is cheesy and B) even the game developers felt is was an exploitation of a flaw and took it out.

Now I realize that there will always be swiping in MTW, and that there will be some people who not only use it, but they rely on it and even boast about it.

Swiping is cheap. It is an exploitation of a bug. By relying on it players hurt themselves because they don't learn real techniques. Swiping isn't honorable, IMHO. If you need to win so bad that you'll swipe, well . . . .

[Zarax]

Imho, lancers are like western Katanks, while GK are the ultimate anti armour unit.

Their should play different roles in the battlefield, where lancers does the usual charge-pull out-charge routine while GK are more apt to slugfests (especially GFK), as pure armour killers.

[Grey_Fox]

I agree completely with Ichi.

[AggonyDuck]

Yup, I too agree with Ichi. Swiping was a real game ruiner back in the days of MTW and shouldn't really be exploited, because it actually is cpable of truly ruining the balance of the game.

[|C|Gaheris_I]

yes ichi i agree swiping has gone too far and it is too easy to wipe out units with a single charge. its a shame i hate vi.

[TosaInu]

Wasn't swiping removed in patched MTW VI? Together with several other exploits/inbalances?

I think MTW VI is the best Totalwar product... I was afk, sorry.. regarding battle stats and the option to mod them. It's having weaker, but also stronger points compared to the other products STW (+MI) and RTW (weather, seasons, pseudo real time strategy). But I think VI only improved compared to MTW.

What do you like more about MTW than VI |C|Gaheris_I?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

I think MTW VI is the best Totalwar product.

.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I agree, VI only improved upon MTW, which was a great game to begin with. I especially like all the units added to the full campaigns and would have to say that that is my favorite improvement, but I never had to deal with swiping sooooooo...

[Zarax]

VI is also an excellent foundation you can build on, my small ZX mod is all focused on taking what VI offers to the edge, improving balance and AI and using the extra units in a more gameplay friendly way

[TosaInu]

MTW VI is very good for modding indeed Zarax.

[Zarax]

Yes, and with the current MTW revival due to RTW departure from veteranan TW players taste (can't find a more diplomatic way to say it) I expect an increased interest in modding too...

I'm currently fiddling with AI to make a sort of Medieval: Total Gameplay MOD that tries to create an interesting experience for new and experienced players alike without changing the game too radically (and without a 100+MB download).

[TosaInu]

(and without a 100+MB download).

I think you should be able to achieve a lot when you don't add too much graphics.

[Zarax]

Well, most big mods aim to add as much as possible to the game (XL pushes it to the limits, while BKB goes even over them at the price of some user friendliness), so the extra size is worth for many players... Personally I find more fun a frugal, AOE-like approach...

[|C|Gaheris_I]

wow thank you for all the comments people.

[Hunter KIng George]

I also prefer Lancers, Gothics just too slow. And I also prefer VI over MTW, I personally dont see How MTW can be better than VI. Gaheris, back to Tosa's question what do you dislike from VI? Maybe because you are a bit new and you find the crowd a bit tough. I recently went to MTW just for fun and got my butt kicked, was no fun, everyone there swipes. And they love those high florin games...I remember back in the days when I hated low florin games I couldn't comprehend why someone would play with so little money, My concept was the more the better but I surely found out that wasnt true, at least in my opinion. As time passed and I grew more experience I learned to appreciate low florin games. Especially with Vi coming along and adding all those units and getting rid of the horrible swiping. More like a win win situation... BTW welcome to The Guild Gaheris!

[|C|Gaheris_I]

there is just some thing about vi online that i hate. its not the skill of the players.....i see no difference...and btw i am not new.....the thing that i hate is that several of them get really really mad when they lose and try making up lame excuses. those players just annoy me ... whereas with mtw there are alot of very experainced players (not sayin on vi there isn't) and they are better to talk to and don't get mad.

[TosaInu]

It's sad indeed that people can ruin a game |C|Gaheris_I. I personally liked to tweak battlestats, but more important than a 'balanced'/tweaked/patched game are nice people to have fun with. Glad to hear you found that in MTW.

[ajaxfetish]

I second what Zarax said. Neither Gothic Knights or Lancers are inherently better than the other; they just serve different purposes. Namely (at the risk of sounding repetitive) charging vs. destroying armoured units. Both of them are nearly impervious to attack.

I can't explain the difference in speed with the same armor. Someone mentioned the quality of steel manufacture in Toledo, but I find that unsatisfying because Germany and Italy were generally recognized as making the finest armour in the world. Spain could produce finer blades but could not quite match the armor quality. So it's a mystery to me why lancers get to go full speed while weighed down equally (perhaps just a gameplay issue-a charge-focused unit that couldn't go fast enough to fulfill its role?).

[Zarax]

Perhaps Lancers were heavily armoured only into the front? It's a common thing in many Cataphracted cavalry types...

[TosaInu]

Hello ajaxfetish,

Yes, I know Toledo from the steel blades, and I recall something about the importance of German and Italian armor.

When we talk about quality here, do we talk about neater decorations (long feet for example), a better fit, or better protection vs weight? In other words, was that armor really that much better or was it an over rated status symbol like modern jeans/sport shoes/cars?

The point I was trying to make, is that better stuff comes available in the arms race. At some time one nation/weapon is ahead of the others (development of better steel is one). When we talk about game realism, I often look at physically plausible (in order to achieve game balance).

Learning something about history and authenticity is also nice. What Zarax says sounds fine. I know (I hope ) that jousting armor also had protection in front. Lancers are primarily doing the same (?): take down an enemy in a frontal attack. While a mace equipped knight can easily be surrounded by enemies.