Germany before WW1

[Franconicus]

If you are interested in this we should start with the Congress at Vienna, then do the revolution of 1848, the first SH-war, the restauration, Prussia before B, Bismarck age, time after Bismarck.

[Kraxis]

Bavaria and Würtemberg were not that strong perhaps, but they were not unknown to war, and to aggressive wars. Both had allied with Napoleon (and abandoned him at Leipzig).

But as I said, Prussia bullied the others into their place. So that Germany became a super-Prussian state. Just like Bismarck had wanted it. Everything he did was for Prussia, nothing was for Germany (in itself, but it did happen that what was good for Prussia was good for Germany).

And prior to this, there was no German nation. All the small principalities were quite adamant that they were different.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And prior to this, there was no German nation. All the small principalities were quite adamant that they were different.

Actually, in light of the current situation in the Balkans, the effective knitting together of Germany between 1849 and 1914 might hold some important lessons. You are quite correct that many of the petty states were adamant about their sense of difference.

I never argued against your point about Prussia's supremacy in Imperial Germany. A simple review of the "power players" in German government from 1867 through WW1 indicates a high percentage of Junkers vis-a-vis the others. I'd never read that Bizmarck was anti-German, but his efforts to keep the Prussian monarchy and aristocracy in the catbird seat were obvious.

Seamus

[Franconicus]

Kraxis,
there was a German nation even though they were seperated in different states. There was one culture and even economy was getting closer and closer.

And you are right, Bismarck was anti-German. He could have managed to create a German state without war (in fact it was almost impossible to prevent the creation of a German state sooner or later). But without war it would not have been a Prussian antidemocratic state.

[caesar44]

Me love Germans , me love them....oops , sorry , wrong thread...(?)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

1871-1918, Germany's greatest period.

[Franconicus]

1871-1918, Germany's greatest period.

Kaiser, can you give a explanation, why you think so? Please!

Here is a small summery of what I know about Prussian history:
Originally Preußen was the name of an area outside of the German Empire. It was divided between the Polish king and the Teutonic Order (1466 - 1772). During reformation the Teutonic Order converter and disappeared and Prussia now was ruled by the Hohenzoller Albrecht von Brandenburg-Ansbach. He was under the authority of the Polish king.
Brandenburg was part of the German Empire (one of seven electorates). It was ruled by the Hohenzoller since 1415. Since 1618 both countries were in personal union, although still separated territories. So the Duke was under the authority of the German Emperor and the Polish King. During the 30 Years War Prussia fought for the Protestant Union. After the war it was war-ravaged and depopulated. Prussia had a poor economy and a weak military. Friedrich Wilhelm I. policy (economic and military reforms, religious tolerance and absolutism) developed the country. He acquired additional territories. In 1657 Poland was weakened by a conflict with Sweden and had to accredit the sovereignty of the Hohenzoller over Prussia. Friedrich III von Brandenburg was then called King Friedrich I in Prussia (not King of Brandenburg, because this was part of the German Empire and not King of Prussia because the Polish King still ruled over a part of it). After a while people called the whole territory Prussia.
King Friedrich Wilhelm I (1713-1740) built the most powerful army of Europe and settled many refugees in the eastern parts of his country. He also bought some parts from the Swedish. Although he was called soldier king he did not make war. His son Friedrich II did. He made three wars to get Schlesien. Together with Austria and Russia he devided Poland and was now called King of Prussia. He abolished torture, gave compulsory education and complete religious tolerance.
During the Napoleon Wars the Prussian army was not on a par with the French (Jena and Auerstedt). After Napoleons Russian campaign the Prussians fought again. Due to the reformation of the army and administration, the militias and volunteers Napoleon could be defeated.
My resume:

• Prussia was not a great power before Friedrich II.
• It had not a big military before Friedrich Wilhelm I.
• It fought to gain new territory of Poland and within Germany.
• Even though the army was big then the country was neither militaristic nor aggressiv.

Do you agree?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Franconicus,

Your history apparently ends before 1871, in which Moltke's armies dramatically defeated the Second Empire in France and invaded Paris, Wilhelm being coronated emperor in Versailles. From then on, Germany, which was practically Preußen + her unnamed vassals, became a world power. Under Bismarck's political direction, they switched alliances with Russia and Austria (at some point with both, hence the Dreikaisernbund), gathered colonies in Africa, built up relation with the Ottoman Empire etc. In 1918 they were defeated in WW1, which they should have evaded in that setting, ie both England + France and Russia on the same side, and the story was over --until 1933.

I think that's what Kaiser refers to.
.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Well, Germany was finally united into a powerful juggernaut of a nation rather than 5,000 feuding states (3,300 I know...). They had been able to challenge the greatest Empire on Earth, the UK, had one of the strongest militaries and one of the best governments the world has ever seen. This period marked the begining of the rise of such great modern generals and leaders such as Bismarck, Tirpitz, von Moltke, and later Guderian, Rommel, Doenitz, and von Richtofen. Germany was proud to be German, yet they had no desire to expand outside of what is rightfully German. No genocidal maniacs either.

[Franconicus]

Mouzafphaerre,
you are right. I wanted to show that Germans (or Prussians) are not agressive and militaristic 'by nature'. Compared to other nations they were quite peaceful before the Napoleon Wars. I agree that this changed significantly. The goal of this whole thread was to discuss how the German nation changed from a peaceloving country of poets and philosophers to an agressor. Obviously I could make my point.

Kaiser,
what makes a great period or a great nation. The number of genius generals? Or the number of enemies you can deal with at the same time?
I think the time before Bismarck was much happier. Germans were proud because they defeated Napoleon. (I hope you do not believe this Wellington tale ) They had national heroes like Blücher, Gneisenau. But also Kant, Goethe, Schiller, Humbold ... . The German Federation was strong enough to defend itself but too weak to threaten any other nation. And Germany was on its way to democracy (the British model). Econimy was fine.
In the end all those Tirpitz, von Moltke, and later Guderian, Rommel, Doenitz, and von Richthofen, the fleet and the colonies did not make Germans more happy!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Franc':

I'd say the militaristic potential had always been there, especially in Prussia. This was the land of the Teutonic Knights, of Barbarossa, of the struggles of the 30-years war every bit as much as it was the culture of Delbruck and Beethoven.
France's levee en masse set a new standard for armed conflict and Prussia's development of the Landwehr system, and its success in re-establishing Prussian independence, positioned them as a nation in arms in a way that was foreign to most European powers in the relative quiessence following the Treaty of Vienna. Prussia correctly recognized that the loose union of German states left them exposed against the increasingly large and well populated states of Europe and they pursued a consolidation of Germany that would secure vital resources etc. The rest is history.
Had Germany bagged its luxury fleet idea, the world may well have been very different. Britain's alliance with France may well have been less entente and a bit less cordiale. Germany would have had at least 4 more active corps, and 2 more with Von Kluck and 2 more with the 8th Army may well have given Germany the win in early September 1914 -- before the vaster resources of Britain, the Kitchener armies, the Italian betrayal etc., condemned the Central Powers.

Kaiser:

I would not label Manfred Albrecht a great leader. His command of a Jasta and later of a Geschwader was adequate, but not inspired. He may well have been the deadliest hunter of that war (and certainly was in the hyper-elite crowd with Fonck, Bishop, McCudden, Udet, Voss, brother Lothar, Rickenbacker, Guynemer etc.), but if you are looking for leadership in the air you need look no further than Boelcke. Boelcke established the Jasta, and Geschwader concept -- including formation attack, worked to establish practical combat training, and literally wrote the book on air combat (a book that is still valid in the missile age).

Seamus