Muwahid foot soldiers

[tigger_on_vrb]

Anyone find a space for these guys in their army?
The stats suggest a charging flanking unit which doesnt need to be too worried about cavalry, but when I have saracens to hold the line and ghazis to flank I'm happy and have never really used them.
What situations do they work better in? What tactics do you employ with them?

[Graphic]

I've never use them before. I want to because they have a cool name but Saracens are just better.

[antisocialmunky]

Don't they have javelins too? Or am I'm thinking about someone else?

[Del Arroyo]

Don't they have javelins too? Or am I'm thinking about someone else?

Murabatin Infantry have javelins, IIRC.

[antisocialmunky]

Oh yeah. I've never built those guys.

One of the things that detracts from them is their small size. It's really hard to use them as a spear unit frontally because they get swamped. Sure you can get away with 3 ranks in prolonged since they have a default 1 point of attack instead of zero like most spearmen, but 60/3=20 while 100/4 is 25. That means less frontage to engage with. Of course you could try and set up 4 and get a cheeky 13 on the charge... which is only crucial for morale breaking.

Another problem with them is their -1 defense, they're the spear-Ghazis and will through like regular ghazis.

Obviously, they aren't made for that. They are small and fast with high charge. They are designed to flank and morale break. In a sense, you can treat them like slow light cavalry that are good against horses. They are very specialized.

I think it's best to keep them on the flanks to counter cavalry. They're small and more manuverable than regular spears and plus, their anti-cav bonus and high charge can probably halt cavalry on contact. I say, set them in ranks of 4 and flank or decomision horses.

[Ludens]

Anyone find a space for these guys in their army?
The stats suggest a charging flanking unit which doesnt need to be too worried about cavalry, but when I have saracens to hold the line and ghazis to flank I'm happy and have never really used them.

They are indeed a form of spear-ghazi's: cheap, expendable shock troop with a bonus against cavalry, so that is how they should be used. I think they were originally meant for the Almohads only, since those cannot use Saracens.

Personally, I do not use them often since I am more of an cavalry general, but Doug-Thompson found they made a great team with Murrabitins: put the Muwahid up front in two ranks and hold formation, and the Murrabitins back at engage-at-will and fire-at-will and order them (manually!) to trow their javelins once the enemy engages the Muwahids. This creates a lot of casualities and any friendly fire is easily replaced: Muwahids are not expensive!

[Roark]

As above, I simply use them interspersed with Murabs (and even Ghazis) in infantry-heavy armies (like castle assaults). Their charge is devastating.

[Martok]

Muwahids generally fill very specific niches in my Egyptian armies. I use them most often to reinforce my lines and/or plug gaps. Also, with their speed, they're fairly ideal for countering enemy cavalry flanking attacks.

[Kommodus]

I tried them out when playing as the Almohads, and didn't like them much. As other have said, they have very specialized uses, and when used for anything else they perform poorly. I prefer units with more flexibility. In addition, even in their most ideal roles, something else will perform better.

For example, Muwahids are capable flankers, especially against cavalry, because of their quick foot speed (for infantry). But there are better choices for this task - namely, medium or heavy cavalry, which remains much faster, has a comparable charge, will probably perform better in the subsequent melee, and will take more heads when the enemy flees.

Muwahids can also head off an enemy cavalry flanking attack. But in truth, they're probably just as likely to lose the fight as they are to win it. This task requires facing cavalry head-on, and Muwahids are often not up to the task the way other spearmen are, especially against heavy knights. I've seen knights power through units of Muwahids that were guarding a bridge. Most other spear units will perform better in this role, then, as their wider front more than makes up for their lack of speed.

That's the two main things Muwahids specialize in, and they're not great at either. Using them to pin while javelins attack? Fine, but other spear units can do that too, and soak up more friendly fire casualties. Throwing them into holes in a line? It'll work, but once again other units can do it better. Sure they're cheap, but unless money is a serious issue, I'd use other, better troops.

[antisocialmunky]

I'd think that they'd be great in 'budget man' games where you're limitted to 20% farms and no merchants.

[Mithrandir]

so many people claiming to use them as cav-counters, and some people claiming heavy cav is better for the job...

People...take some advice from someone who hasn't played this game for a while, but probably spend more time on it (online!) than the avarage man looking at woman (that's a lot I think ;) ).

If you are either Egyptians or Almohads go for camels!
Even if you have some bad experiences with them, get them at valour 2 and above and manage them so they take on enemy cav (and not much else at the lower valour) and they will chew right through them.

After you've routed the enemy cav, you still got your camels, which counting as cavelry themselves and with a nice charge still make good flankers!

Trust me, when I say...go for camels.I've won hundreds of online games thanks to them.

Tip for (online players) people who can;t seem to find a decent army which is slightly different from the avarage :

Go for almohads, get 4 beefed up militia sergs, 3 AUM, 3 camels,2 cavelry,3 arbs,1 horse archer.

Make sure the camels engage the enemy cav, they will win or at least hold the cav off for as long as it takes the inf to win.The inf can be beefed up (and thus be superior)since the camels are cheap, the cavelry will just be used to quickly break the enemy cav or flank when possible (all money goes to the inf)& to protect the arbs, the arbs will make sure you'll wont have to charge, the horse archer, same story+ you can harras the enemy with it.

long boring story, but try it and tell me how it went.

summary : camels rule , nice almo army : über-infantry backed by camels ©Mithrandir 2003

[crpcarrot]

i dont know i've found muwahids quite usefull specially int he desert. they r fast and have a much better kill ratio than the other muslim spears. true SI will last longer but if u plan on killing cavalry quickly and unsing the unit again the muwahids are the best. they have their niche and used in that capacity they are great. true u could use ghazi to flank but u probably only have them for about 2 attacks before theyve managed to get most of their number killed

[ajaxfetish]

I suppose Muwahids would probably valor up faster than any other spear units as well.

[antisocialmunky]

What about Italian Light Infantry in early?

[Yesugey]

I see many members are not even using these infantry, and like to use Saracens, because they have more men.

I personally use them both Saracens and Muwahids, but Muwahids are my favourite instead of Saracens.

You see, on battlefield Saracens are fighting so long, but they actually cant kill the enemy. Yes they hold the ranks for long time, but if you dont flank the enemy while battle continues, they are breaking.

Muwahids have not that problem, they simply cutting the enemy cavalry, as antisocialmunky said: "they are Ghazis with spears."

Also their morale are better, they are lighter troops so better suited for desert warfare.

So Muwahids are much better than Saracens. Only reason i train Saracens is they have so cool looking. And sometimes because their unit size is good to prevent rebellions.

[O'Hea]

I used to use them a lot back in the day when I played Moors, mostly because of the novelty of flanking with a spear unit.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

I have a similar problem with these guys as I do with Gothic Sargents: the sixty-man unit size is too small to make it a truly effective, value-for-deployment-slot unit, IMHO.

Plus, I agree with what someone said, very articulately, above: they don't excel at anything, and aren't as general purpose as, say, Saracens.

Now, if you could recruit Muwahid camel jockeys that would be tempting.

Regards
Victor

Sapere aude

[Mithrandir]

Now, if you could recruit Muwahid camel jockeys that would be tempting.

You heard about our top-secret training camp ey?

Like I said in 2005, camels are my main anti-cav unit anyday.

[Fagar]

I use them tactically when I am playing as the Almohads.

They are a good and cheap shock troop and the armour piercing of the javelin is just so much fun to bring down catholic Royal horse.

Almost inevitably the knights will not want to engage spear, they register the Muwahids as spear and go at your ghazi or Arab infantry instead and then get a nasty shock when they get flanked and javelined out of existence

[caravel]

I use them tactically when I am playing as the Almohads.

They are a good and cheap shock troop and the armour piercing of the javelin is just so much fun to bring down catholic Royal horse.

Almost inevitably the knights will not want to engage spear, they register the Muwahids as spear and go at your ghazi or Arab infantry instead and then get a nasty shock when they get flanked and javelined out of existence

I think you may be confusing Muwahid with Murabitin? Murabitin are javelinmen. Muwahid are spearmen.

[Vantek]

Haven't found a lot of use for them either. Only situations I can imagine is using them exactly the same as Ghazis when I don't have enough provs capable of producing Ghazis, or when I don't have enough generals so one army has to have low rank general, so that SI would run away.

[Jxrc]

Thanks to their speed, they are probably the best spear to chase enemy camels

(if you have no missile)...

[Thermal]

There ok, one advantage I find is that they have better morale than saracens, that, though rather good, break very easily under pressure.

[gollum]

Good morale low armor and iirc good attack for spears. The minus point is that they are too few men in the unit for spearmen. This takes away some of their shine for non-desert battles. Otherwise a good, almost stapple kind, Muslim unit, for me.

[The Lurker Below]

multi-use hybrid type units are wonderful. playing the turks are a breeze with archers that do good flank attack melee (Futtuwa), archers on horses that can run down a fleeing enemy, and high morale spearmen that can handle the heat as well as a horse, and still be fast enough to turn the flank. I'd not rely on Muwahids for all my spear, but I produce more of them than ghazis.

first post here. been back to this crazy addictive game for a year now, taking a 4 year break since my first addiction to it. really enjoy this site. thank you to the creators of Ancient TW and Reducks.

[bondovic]

Muwahids are anti cavalry flank cover units. Saracens are main body. Muwahids are not flankers. Arab infantry or Ghazi are flankers. Muwahids can also do forward pinning thanks to high morale and speed. Good for desert.

[Martok]

To follow up on my earlier comment in this thread from 2005 (wow, talk about your thread resurrections!):

Being a spear unit with good speed and high morale, I find Muwahids are quite effective in a variety of roles. They're definitely a "jack of all trades, master of none" -type unit. Definitely nice to have a couple units of them in any army, as they give you a degree of tactical flexibility you otherwise might not have.

[gollum]

The Muwahids are given to the Turks and Egyptian, but they should have been an Almohad only unit. In that light, they can be a powerful combo with AUMs. The Egyptians and Turks on the other hand lack a dedicated heavy melee sword infantry unit, easily accessible and so Saracens are vital to them as they fill a variety of infantry roles in the absence of other melee units that can face toe to toe with Chivalric men at arms and the like.

[Thermal]

The Muwahids are given to the Turks and Egyptian, but they should have been an Almohad only unit.

Haven't played it in a while but I swear the almohads got them too....

[gollum]

Read better my last post (that you quoted!) TM. I said "it should have been an Almohad unit only" which clearly says that the Almohads actually have them, but not exclusively.