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Thread: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

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    Default Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Thousands march in Hamas rally
    By Laila El-Haddad in Gaza

    Monday 19 September 2005, 0:03 Makka Time, 21:03 GMT


    10,000 people were said to be at the demonstration

    The Palestinian resistance group Hamas has held a massive military rally in Gaza City, in clear defiance of President Mahmoud Abbas's calls to disarm.

    Hamas said a 10,000-strong army, posing on jeeps and camouflage-decorated trucks, spread out across Gaza city on Sunday.

    The men carried assault rifles, Qassam rockets and anti-tank missiles as hundreds of thousands of supporters cheered them on.

    The demonstration comes one week after Israel completed the evacuation of its forces from the Gaza Strip, ending 38 years of military rule in the impoverished territory, and many Gazans see it as the largest show of force yet by the group.


    Defiance

    The demonstration was considered a clear message of defiance to Abbas's calls to disarm Gaza, including his own party's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, under the banner of One Authority, One Weapon.

    "We will not allow the state of lawlessness, the disorder of weapons, taking law into one's hands, kidnapping and attacks on government institutions and state land to continue," Abbas said earlier. "No one is above the law."

    The demonstration also the first time commanders of Hamas's armed wing - the Izze-Din-al-Qassam Brigades, long hunted by Israeli drones and helicopter gunships - made a public appearance.


    Resistance

    "These are only a small portion of the brigades - spread out on the very same street that our leaders were once assassinated on. If they all came out today, Gaza itself could not fit them," said the one of the younger leaders of the armed wing.

    "We are here today to say we shall never lay down our arms. Our arms are our existence," he said.

    "It is not a matter of how much it costs us; we will never let up. We are here to tell the entire world, Israel must leave not just Gaza-but Palestine in its entirety.

    "Some people say these rockets are child's play. If this is the case, why did the enemy escape from them? We have defeated the army that cannot be defeated. We have crushed the army that cannot be crushed."

    Credit for withdrawal

    Palestinian factions have been jockeying for power and credit for the Israeli withdrawal in the run-up to Palestinian parliamentary elections in January.

    The ability of the Abbas government to come to a swift resolution to the Rafah border crisis, and to re-open the Rafah crossing with Palestinian control, is thought to be a test for his government.

    Hamas won the majority of the seats in Gaza's municipal elections this year, and the group's effectiveness at meeting the immediate needs of residents and getting the job done is seen as a challenge to the popularity of the largely mismanaged Palestinian Authority.

    Election

    Earlier, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said that Israel would "make every effort" not to help the Palestinian Authority hold elections in the West Bank if Hamas took part in them.

    Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar on Sunday warned Sharon against impeding the Palestinian elections, Aljazeera reported.

    "Based on Sharon's latest statements about impeding the Palestinian elections and preventing Hamas from participating, we hereby announce that if Sharon impeded the elections process, we have the right to disturb the lives of the Jewish settlers in occupied Palestine by any means viable to us.


    "Secondly, Hamas movement opposes any step taken (by Israel) under the pretext of establishing security zones aimed at serving the purposes of the Zionist enemy in any form,'' al-Zahar said.
    Oh good. Hamas is saying the Israeli pullout is a victory.

    We are here to tell the entire world, Israel must leave not just Gaza-but Palestine in its entirety
    It is clear the Palestine is a terrorist region. Israel has attempted to foster good will and has dismantled settlements and moved out of Gaza. They intend to do much the same in the West Bank. But what do Palestinians want? The destruction of Israel. Nothing less. Giving Gaza, an act of peace, has only fueled the Palestinians.


    We must support Israel. And Israel must put a final end to Palestine. No more negotiations. Sheet of glass.

    Link to story:http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...FA6A30A336.htm
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Oh good. Hamas is saying the Israeli pullout is a victory.
    It is clear the Palestine is a terrorist region. Israel has attempted to foster good will and has dismantled settlements and moved out of Gaza. They intend to do much the same in the West Bank. But what do Palestinians want? The destruction of Israel. Nothing less. Giving Gaza, an act of peace, has only fueled the Palestinians.


    We must support Israel. And Israel must put a final end to Palestine. No more negotiations. Sheet of glass.

    Link to story:http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...FA6A30A336.htm
    And why is that? Does Israel has better rights to the territory? I don't think so.
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    And why is that? Does Israel has better rights to the territory? I don't think so.
    You dont think Israel has better rights to Israel than Hammas?

    I hate say to you all that I told you so, but I told you so. There will be no peace until one of these sides truly defeats and eliminates the other. The Palestinians wont be satisfied until every jew is gone from the middle east. Yet there are many who dont take them serious just as they dont take AQ and Bin Laden serious. Israel is without a doubt one of our greatest allies in this war . The Palestinians seem much ore like AQ and all the rest. In fact they may be the model that AQ is based upon.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Member Senior Member Proletariat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue pe

    Heh. Once again, if the Palestinians lay down their arms, there is no more terrorism. If the Israelis lays down their arms, there is no Israel.

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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    You dont think Israel has better rights to Israel than Hammas?

    I hate say to you all that I told you so, but I told you so. There will be no peace until one of these sides truly defeats and eliminates the other. The Palestinians wont be satisfied until every jew is gone from the middle east. Yet there are many who dont take them serious just as they dont take AQ and Bin Laden serious. Israel is without a doubt one of our greatest allies in this war . The Palestinians seem much ore like AQ and all the rest. In fact they may be the model that AQ is based upon.
    Well i don't think that the jews have more right to Palestine that the palestinians, if that's your question. I asked this because if I remember it well the palestinians occupated the land until your government and the british took over.
    And I agree with you, but there's another solution, take the people living on "Israel" and put them in another place, I really believe that the land belongs to the palestinians, terrorism and violence aside. On the other hand...What is this "war" you're talking about? War against terrorism? I would not call it a war, you cannot fight an idea, and the idea will keep spreading if countries keep invading other countries.
    Born On The Flames

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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    We must support Israel. And Israel must put a final end to Palestine. No more negotiations. Sheet of glass.
    So you support Genocide Divinus ? Thats nice
    Sheet of glass ???? So you you favour a nice little nuclear strike , how pleasant

    Oh good. Hamas is saying the Israeli pullout is a victory.
    Oh , and there was me thinking that an Israeli withdrawel from the occupied territories was a resounding defeat for the Palestinians

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    I asked this because if I remember it well the palestinians occupated the land until your government and the british took over.
    Well you remeber wrong. There was no such thing as Palestinians until the mid 1900s. There has never been a palestinian government in the region. There was a nation called Israel thousands of years ago. So if we are going to use who owned it first then for sure its Israel. Also the US did not give anything to Israel. The UN did and before that the british mandate. It was owned by the Ottoman Turks before that not the "Palestinians" as many would have you believe.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    So if we are going to use who owned it first then for sure its Israel.
    Not according to the Bible

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    Intifadah Member Dâriûsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Oh good. Hamas is saying the Israeli pullout is a victory.

    ...Israel has attempted to foster good will and has dismantled settlements and moved out of Gaza. They intend to do much the same in the West Bank....

    ...We must support Israel. And Israel must put a final end to Palestine. No more negotiations. Sheet of glass...

    There were twenty-five settlements in the Gaza Strip. There are roughly three hundred in the West Bank, and while they’re closing four of them, it cannot be said to be quite the same. Unfortunately however, a lot of settlers in the West Bank share your view: the end of Palestine.



    Anyway. The Hamas has spent a lot of effort to build up immense political power. It is no surprise to see them exploiting the Israeli withdrawal to the fullest.

    This is indeed their victory.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


    I only defended myself and the honor of my family” - Nazanin

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Not according to the Bible .
    Yes even accordding to the bible. There were peole there before but no centralized government and there certainly werent Palestinians.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue pe

    If you want to go biblical a massacre is never wrong! The ones that manage to wipe out all competition are the chosen people, right?
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    We must support Israel. And Israel must put a final end to Palestine. No more negotiations. Sheet of glass.
    So you support Genocide Divinus ? Thats nice
    Sheet of glass ???? So you you favour a nice little nuclear strike , how pleasant

    Oh good. Hamas is saying the Israeli pullout is a victory.
    Oh , and there was me thinking that an Israeli withdrawel from the occupied territories was a resounding defeat for the Palestinians

    Quote Originally Posted by Dâriûsh
    Anyway. The Hamas has spent a lot of effort to build up immense political power. It is no surprise to see them exploiting the Israeli withdrawal to the fullest.

    This is indeed their victory.
    Hamas is a terrorist organization with the stated objective of the destruction of Israel.

    According to The United States Department of State:

    Background Information on Foreign Terrorist Organizations
    Released by the Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism
    October 8, 1999

    HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement) a.k.a. Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya, Students of Ayyash, Students of the Engineer, Yahya Ayyash Units, Izz Al-Din Al-Qassim Brigades, Izz Al-Din Al-Qassim Forces, Izz Al-Din Al-Qassim Battalions, Izz al-Din Al Qassam Brigades, Izz al-Din Al Qassam Forces, Izz al-Din Al Qassam Battalions

    Description: Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. HAMAS's strength is concentrated in the Gaza Strip and a few areas of the West Bank. Also has engaged in peaceful political activity, such as running candidates in West Bank Chamber of Commerce elections.
    Activities: HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks--including large-scale suicide bombings--against Israeli civilian and military targets, suspected Palestinian collaborators, and Fatah rivals.

    Strength: Unknown number of hardcore members; tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.

    Location/Area of Operation: Primarily the occupied territories, Israel, and Jordan.

    External Aid: Receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activity take place in Western Europe and North America.
    http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/rpt/fto/2801.htm#hamas


    According to the United Kingdom Home Office:

    Terrorist Groups
    Twenty-five international terrorist organisations are currently proscribed under the Terrorism Act 2000, which means they are outlawed in the UK.

    Hamas Izz al-Din al-Qassem Brigades: Hamas aims to end Israeli occupation in Palestine and establish an Islamic state.
    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/terrorism/threat/groups/


    According to Australian Government National Security:

    Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades
    Listed in Australia 9 November 2003 re-listed 5 June 2005

    The following information is based on publicly available details regarding the organisation known as 'The Islamic Resistance Movement' (Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya) which is more commonly referred to under its Arabic acronym Hamas. Its military wing is known as the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades. These details have been corroborated by material from intelligence investigations into the activities of Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

    Hamas is a radical Sunni Islamic organisation which emerged from the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood in late 1987 - shortly after the commencement of the Intifada. Hamas soon became the dominant Islamic fundamentalist group in the Occupied Territories. Its main presence is in the Gaza Strip and some areas of the West Bank.

    The functions of the Hamas organisation, which has distinct civilian and military wings, include legitimate political and social activities. Its welfare and mosque networks act as a base for its recruitment and propaganda activities. Its terrorist operations are conducted by its military wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades.

    Funding for Hamas is largely received from Palestinian expatriates and private benefactors in moderate Arab states. Some of this funding is channelled into its terrorist infrastructure and to support the families of Hamas activists who have died as 'martyrs' in the struggle against Israel and to support the families of those activists who have been arrested.

    Hamas aims to establish an Islamic Palestinian state. It is a rejectionist organisation that has defined its highest priority as jihad for the liberation of all of Palestine. Hamas has employed terror tactics (including engagement in terrorist acts through the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades) in order to achieve its objectives.

    While Hamas is generally divided into three elements: political, military and communal or welfare activities, there is constant mobility of roles and activities between these elements. The diversity of activities also enables the military element to mobilise candidates for military operations from those visiting the mosques and communal facilities.

    Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades has been responsible for a series of suicide bomb attacks, shootings and kidnappings of Israeli/Jewish soldiers and civilians in Israel and the Occupied Territories and does not discriminate between Israeli military and civilian personnel. Civilians from a number of countries including the US have been killed in these terrorist attacks although Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades has not specifically targeted Western interests.

    In what may be a significant turning point in modus operandi to recruit and utilise foreign muslims in suicide attacks, Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades recruited and despatched two British muslims to carry out a suicide bombing of a beach front bar in Tel Aviv. Four people were killed and over 60 injured in the 30 April 2003 attack.

    Since its formation the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades has been involved in over 100 terrorist incidents resulting in the deaths of over 500 people and injuries to more than 3000. The types of attacks conducted by the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades have included:

    suicide bombings on buses and in crowded markets, nightclubs, and other highly populated places;
    drive by shootings, at military check points and of civilians at the roadside; and
    the abduction and murder of Israeli civilians or off duty Israeli soldiers.
    Recent major terrorist attacks for which responsibility has been claimed by, or reliably attributed to, Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have included:

    the 7 March 2003 shooting of Israeli civilians in Kiriat Arba which killed two people and injured four others;
    the 30 April 2003 suicide bomb attack outside a bar ('Mikes Place') in Tel Aviv which killed four people and injured over 60 others, where the bomber was a British citizen;
    the 18 May 2003 suicide bombing on a bus near the 'French Hill', Jerusalem, which killed seven people and injured 20 others;
    the 19 May 2003 suicide bomb attack at the Amakim mall in Afula, Israel, which killed three people and injured 54 others. Hamas, together with two other groups, claimed responsibility;
    the 11 June 2003 suicide bombing on a bus at Jaffa Street in Jerusalem which killed 17 people and injured 105 others;
    the 19 August 2003 suicide bombing of a bus in Jerusalem which killed 21 people and wounded over 100 others. Hamas initially claimed responsibility for this attack (which was also claimed by the Islamic Jihad's al-Quds Brigade) although a senior Hamas official later stated that Hamas was not involved; and
    the 9 September 2003 suicide bombings, one at a bus stop near Tel Aviv, the second at a Jerusalem nightspot, which killed 15 people and injured many others.
    ASIO assesses that Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades is continuing to prepare, plan and foster the commission of acts involving threats to human life and serious damage to property. This assessment is strongly corroborated by information provided by reliable and credible intelligence sources.

    In the course of pursuing its objective of creating an Islamic Palestinian state, Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades is known to have engaged in actions that:

    are aimed towards advancing its political and religious causes;
    are intended to, or do, cause serious damage to property, the death of persons or endangerment of life; and
    are intended to cause, or have caused, serious risk to the safety of sections of the public in Israel, and other persons visiting areas in which it operates.
    In view of the above information, Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades is assessed to be preparing, planning, and fostering the conduct of terrorist acts. Such acts include actions which are to be done and threats of actions which are to be made with the intention of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause and with the intention of coercing, or influencing by intimidation the government and people of Israel. The actions or threatened actions which Hamas' Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades is assessed to be involved in would, if successfully completed, cause serious physical harm and death to persons and serious damage to property.
    http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/a...ing_Hamas&apos


    Those of you make comparisons do not forget this: Hamas targets civilians whenever possible. Israel avoids civilians whenever possible.

    Hamas blows up busses full of women and children and innocent people.

    Israel targets militant members with precision guided munitions in order to minimize civilian casualties.

    If the people of Israel collectively decided to put an end to Palestinian terror and wage a true war, then every Palestinian in the region would be dead. And if anybody mobilized against Israel, then they would be dead also.
    Israel shows unbelievable restraint and desires a peaceful end to years of madness with two states, side by side because it is the just and good thing to do. Hamas wants only the destruction of Israel and all her people: man, woman, and child.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

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    Intifadah Member Dâriûsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Well you remeber wrong. There was no such thing as Palestinians until the mid 1900s.
    Somewhat true. Under the delightful British Mandate, all people in the region were called Palestinians, no matter their linguistic, ethnic, or religious heritage. When Israel was formed, citizens of this new nation were called Israeli, and that included Arabs and other ethnicities. But those outside official Israel, in the occupied territories, including the refugees in the neighbouring countries, adopted the term Palestinians for themselves, this name was emphasized by the new PLO rigorously exploiting Arab nationalism.

    But that doesn’t mean that the area was desolate and uncultivated prior to the forming of Israel.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


    I only defended myself and the honor of my family” - Nazanin

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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    "The militant clerics society"?


    I'm not sure I like the sound of that.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

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    Intifadah Member Dâriûsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Those of you make comparisons do not forget this: Hamas targets civilians whenever possible.
    Indeed, the Hamas is a despicable organization. But I did not see neither I nor Tribesman claim otherwise.


    I’ve been to Gaza, and as your many articles mentioned, the Hamas is building up their power through promises of education and better times. Some of the books they supply to children are vile, as vile as nazi propaganda of the thirties, but unfortunately these are among the only books many of these children will ever have access to. With this ongoing campaign, I am almost certain that they will eventually supplant the PA.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


    I only defended myself and the honor of my family” - Nazanin

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    Intifadah Member Dâriûsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    "The militant clerics society"?


    I'm not sure I like the sound of that.
    Neither does the Ayatollah in Tehran. Despite its name, it’s a peaceful Iranian reformist movement. Alas it has yet to be successful.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


    I only defended myself and the honor of my family” - Nazanin

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Dâriûsh
    Anyway. The Hamas has spent a lot of effort to build up immense political power. It is no surprise to see them exploiting the Israeli withdrawal to the fullest.

    This is indeed their victory.
    If the other players play well, it's thier last...

    The Gaza strip is thier powerbase, but...
    A very fortified border to Israel (well it's more to protect the Israelis for the first years) and time will reduce thier support.

    As problems cannot be blamed on the Isrealis as they stop doing things in there, so the blame will either shift to Hamas (as they currently supply much of the infrastructure there) or (unlikely) disappear as Hamas will actually rebuild the Gaza-strip. But here's the fine part of it, if the Palestinians get it well, would they like to lose it in a war against Israel? Nope. Thus will Hamas either reform to a less radical form or lose power.

    And BTW if someone would start a terrorist movement in the US that fights for state rights, would you then support federalisation of the US? Because otherwise you would be letting the terrorists "win" (as all they needs to do is claiming victory, even if they had nothing to do with it).

    Edit:
    This is more aimed at other members here, Dâriûsh simply supplied a good quote to build on.
    Last edited by Ironside; 09-19-2005 at 11:06.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Dâriûsh
    I’ve been to Gaza, and as your many articles mentioned, the Hamas is building up their power through promises of education and better times. Some of the books they supply to children are vile, as vile as nazi propaganda of the thirties, but unfortunately these are among the only books many of these children will ever have access to. With this ongoing campaign, I am almost certain that they will eventually supplant the PA.
    Your calm, informative posts are a beacon of reason, Dâriûsh. I particularly appreciate your forward-looking mentality, as opposed to the useless 'who was there first' and 'who is the biggest mass-murderer' games some people play with regard to the Palestine issue.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    We must support Israel. And Israel must put a final end to Palestine. No more negotiations. Sheet of glass.
    Let us refrain from statements like this. It is tantamount to saying "kill all the Palestinians" which is just as unacceptable as saying "kill all the Jews".
    Unto each good man a good dog

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    Intifadah Member Dâriûsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside
    The Gaza strip is thier powerbase, but...
    A very fortified border to Israel (well it's more to protect the Israelis for the first years) and time will reduce thier support.

    As problems cannot be blamed on the Isrealis as they stop doing things in there, so the blame will either shift to Hamas (as they currently supply much of the infrastructure there) or (unlikely) disappear as Hamas will actually rebuild the Gaza-strip. But here's the fine part of it, if the Palestinians get it well, would they like to lose it in a war against Israel? Nope. Thus will Hamas either reform to a less radical form or lose power.
    I dare speculate that the fortified border is feeding their power. The Gaza Strip was, and is, in effect a prison. Most of the young men and women seem to very much desire to leave the place, to get away. Unfortunately, getting out is terribly hard. I’m not at all sure on the procedures, so correct me if I am wrong, but when you apply to leave the country, the authorities will check your background, going as far as checking the criminal records of your brothers, and even your cousins. Imagine if you are denied to get abroad to study, denied education. Imagine the prospect of spending the rest of your life within 288 square kilometres shared by more than 1.3 million people. Of course, with the Gaza pullout, they gain another 72 square kilometres, previously occupied by roughly 7.000 settlers, but Israel is still closed, and there are no jobs to be had.

    The Hamas will continue to inflame the masses with rhetoric and promises. They have already had armed clashes with the Fatah and the PA loyalists. And while they’re building their power, the PA, in its declining state, brought down by armed conflict and corruption, is losing its grip on the people. Yet I doubt the Hamas will manage any better, despite their financial support from the Oil States, Syria, and the rest of the usual suspects.



    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Your calm, informative posts are a beacon of reason, Dâriûsh. I particularly appreciate your forward-looking mentality, as opposed to the useless 'who was there first' and 'who is the biggest mass-murderer' games some people play with regard to the Palestine issue.
    Thank you and likewise, I might add.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


    I only defended myself and the honor of my family” - Nazanin

  21. #21

    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    I don't know much about the situation, but if I was Israel I would see this as an insult and a major block to the peace process, it seems that Israel are making an effort for peace only to have their gesture thrown back in their face though there is probably more to it than that.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    As i've said when Israel announce to withdraw from Gaza, the Palestinians see that as a sign of weakness. That have just pumpep up the radicals and their support within Palestinians. That withdrawal was a step backward, not a step toward peace. Unfortunatly...

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Well I used the expression fortify border as I think that building a wall around Gaza on Israeli ground is acceptable. Some movement is of course allowed, but as Hamas will probably try to abuse any free movement into Israel, you have to restrict it for a few years.
    I'm not fond of the Israaeli controlled border to Egypt though.

    Any suggestions on good moves to resolve the conflict?
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  24. #24
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Well you remeber wrong. There was no such thing as Palestinians until the mid 1900s. There has never been a palestinian government in the region. There was a nation called Israel thousands of years ago. So if we are going to use who owned it first then for sure its Israel. Also the US did not give anything to Israel. The UN did and before that the british mandate. It was owned by the Ottoman Turks before that not the "Palestinians" as many would have you believe.
    Actually the Paestinians have been there for centuries, just that it meaning arabized Muslims is a 20th century conotation. But it was never an idependant state. Palestine is a Roman name for the area they changed it from Judea at some point during the empire.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

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  25. #25
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    As long as neither side grants the other any alternative but violence this is going to remain an unstable region. On the one hand we have Israel, which has consistently ruined any chance of a good life for the Palestinian people; on the other hand we have militants, utilizing violence in the name of people who suffer all the more through their actions. It's a lose-lose situation for the Palestinians. With no jobs and no prospect of a good education it's hardly surprising they fall prey to the rhetoric of groups such as Hamas, who are frequently the ones who supply both.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

  26. #26
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Somewhat true. Under the delightful British Mandate, all people in the region were called Palestinians, no matter their linguistic, ethnic, or religious heritage. When Israel was formed, citizens of this new nation were called Israeli, and that included Arabs and other ethnicities. But those outside official Israel, in the occupied territories, including the refugees in the neighbouring countries, adopted the term Palestinians for themselves, this name was emphasized by the new PLO rigorously exploiting Arab nationalism.
    Actually under the British mandate Palestine was split in two. One being Arab Palestine and the other Jewish Palestine. So in effect both could clam to be Palestinians. However what we now call Palestine is neither of these but a third partion giving the land called Judea and Sumatra to the so called Palestinians. It has no bearing on thiose who came before and were called Palestinians either in who they are or the land they occupied. As you say it was all a propoganda move by Arrafat to call his people Palestinians. Heck he was an Egyptian himself like many other so called Palestinians.

    Actually the Paestinians have been there for centuries, just that it meaning arabized Muslims is a 20th century conotation. But it was never an idependant state. Palestine is a Roman name for the area they changed it from Judea at some point during the empire.
    No they changed the name from Israel to Palestine which means the conquered land or something like that. Judea kept its anme until the current Palestinans took over the kand . I mean its sort of embarrising to claim that Judea belongs to the Palestinians , that Jews dont belong there and that its always been theirs isnt it?

    On the one hand we have Israel, which has consistently ruined any chance of a good life for the Palestinian people;
    Yup this is why the withdrew from Gazza Why do you think the Israelis treat them so badly yet let other arabs(Palestinians) be citizens? Meanwhile not a jew can remain in Palestine.

    It's a lose-lose situation for the Palestinians
    Looks more like a loose loose situation for Israel to me. They give up land to seek peace and the otherside claims they threw them out and ratchets up the rhetoric and drums of war.
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  27. #27
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    However what we now call Palestine is neither of these but a third partion giving the land called Judea and Sumatra to the so called Palestinians.
    Poor Indonesians! LOL. The Javanese will be happy to be rid of Sumatra. Anyway Gawain keep your posts coming, they are a daily comic relief.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  28. #28
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    “So if we are going to use who owned it first then for sure its Israel”, except that the Jews/Israelis took it to the Philistines (remember David killed the guy who was defending his land, Goliath).
    It was owned by the Ottoman Turks before that not the "Palestinians" as many would have you believe.” So, all the populations under occupation from an Empire loose their identity… Interesting concept… What happened after the liberation, do they keep it or do they recovered their own identity (meaning that the Israelis are Romans, if you prefer)?
    “Hamas is a terrorist organization with the stated objective of the destruction of Israel” Unfortunately, I don’t have access to the files concerning the Haganah, Irgoun and Stern. The UK MI 5 probably described them as Jewish extremist religious groups aiming at the destruction of the British mandate on Palestine…
    Not I have a great admiration for HAMAS, but this kind of description is, well, not really accurate.
    Most of the resistance, insurgent of terrorist groups are aiming to the destruction of their enemy. And regular armies also, I have to say…

    To say that the Palestinians don’t want peace because one movement burned and demonstrated is ridiculous. The Israelis colons occupied a land, they destroyed local houses, throwing people in misery and time to time killing some people. The same who are crying on their religious buildings burning were the one applauding when Tsahal launched two missiles on a mosque to killed one HAMA leader during the prayer, or when a Jewish extremist just went in a mosque and shoot to the crowd.

    During a long period, I was a supporter of Israel, admiring what they built. I can’t any more. Not I support the Palestinians. I am from the generation remembering Lods, Munich, Entebbe, and Black September. However, I can’t deny the extreme misery of the Palestinians (even if some is due to their own corrupted leaders) and the daily humiliation they have to suffer from the Israelis and especially from the colons. The majority of Israelis didn’t agree with them but they had to give their children, brothers and sisters to protect the colons, who, by the way, refuse to serve in the army.

    To impose peace will work only for some time. Because the extremists nee to have luck only one time, Israel always. Seek for a real and just peace is the only solution… The solution of extermination is fortunately not any more on the table… Israel has to recover her soul, to be again this nation of pioneers and heroes, building a new world based on justice and mercy I admired as a kid. Then peace will come.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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  29. #29
    Intifadah Member Dâriûsh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Actually under the British mandate Palestine was split in two. One being Arab Palestine and the other Jewish Palestine. So in effect both could clam to be Palestinians. However what we now call Palestine is neither of these but a third partion giving the land called Judea and Sumatra to the so called Palestinians. It has no bearing on thiose who came before and were called Palestinians either in who they are or the land they occupied.
    The area “Judea and Samaria” is the West Bank. I am not sure what you’re saying here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    No they changed the name from Israel to Palestine which means the conquered land or something like that. Judea kept its anme until the current Palestinans took over the kand . I mean its sort of embarrising to claim that Judea belongs to the Palestinians , that Jews dont belong there and that its always been theirs isnt it?
    Actually, the name Palestine has roots in Greek and Latin. From there is also derived the Arab word, Filastin. It is thought to originate in Philistine.
    "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr."


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  30. #30

    Default Re: Thousands march in Hamas rally: Proof again of Palestine's inability to pursue peace

    Indeed, the Hamas is a despicable organization. But I did not see neither I nor Tribesman claim otherwise.
    Did you miss it Dariush ? It must be in here somewhere , I must have written how nice the terrorists are and how we should do the world a favour by turning Israel into a sheet of glass .

    Oh sorry , you actually read what I wrote didn't you

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