British forces demolish Iraqi jail to free fellow soldiers

[Goofball]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9400104/

What's going on with this? It appears there is a lot more to the story than is being told right now.

I'm inclined to reserve judgment until more details are available, but on the face of it this seems to fly in the face of efforts to help Iraq to become a sovereign nation.

[Adrian II]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9400104/

What's going on with this? It appears there is a lot more to the story than is being told right now.

I'm inclined to reserve judgment until more details are available, but on the face of it this seems to fly in the face of efforts to help Iraq to become a sovereign nation.

The BBC reported this earlier. I thought about it and came to the (tentative) opposite conclusion. Nothing covert going on, just the Brits endearing themselves to the natives. Show them who's boss. Who said they could have their country back anyway?

[Goofball]

The BBC reported this earlier. I thought about it and came to the (tentative) opposite conclusion. Nothing covert going on, just the Brits endearing themselves to the natives. Show them who's boss. Who said they could have their country back anyway?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

[Proletariat]

I had first heard it reported that the captives had been released after 'negotiations.'

I'd hate to see what their interrogations are like.

[Adrian II]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Right, sorry for the belated recognition of your point. Yes, in the sense that the new Iraqi authorities defy the Brits and need to be shown who's boss, this is new and there must be more to it. So much for caffeine boosts. This dim rectal aperture is now going straight to bed, in order to take a fresh look at things tomorrow morning (it is now 2 am in Woodenshoesia).

[Red Peasant]

It's not good, but there has been tension in Basra since the British forces arrested a leading member of a Shia 'militia' force, a fundamentalist group backed by Iran.

I'd say these guys are looking for British hostages to negotiate a swap. I understand that the British soldiers were taken by the militia and weren't in the police station, they were being held in a private house. They are very lucky to get out alive with their heads intact.

If this is right, it is a worrying sign because it means that the Shia militia has infiltrated and gained control of the police in Basra.

We are losing control there and I can't see it getting any better. I hope we get out soon.

[Sigurd]

It's not good, but there has been tension in Basra since the British forces arrested a leading member of a Shia 'militia' force, a fundamentalist group backed by Iran.

I'd say these guys are looking for British hostages to negotiate a swap. I understand that the British soldiers were taken by the militia and weren't in the police station, they were being held in a private house. They are very lucky to get out alive with their heads intact.

If this is right, it is a worrying sign because it means that the Shia militia has infiltrated and gained control of the police in Basra.

We are losing control there and I can't see it getting any better. I hope we get out soon.

Apparently according to diverse sources (NTB-Reuters, AP, CNN) the two Britons where arrested after being caught dressed as Arabs shooting at civilians, hurting several. Interrogations revealed that they where doing a “special security task”. The British troops attacked the prison because they were afraid that the two soldiers were held by a local militia, something that was confirmed when they were not found at the prison.

AP reports that 150 Iraqi prisoners escaped.

[English assassin]

I had first heard it reported that the captives had been released after 'negotiations.'

I'd hate to see what their interrogations are like.

LOL. Doesn't everyone bring a 30mm cannon to the negotiating table? Anyway in the old days it would have been a squadron of battleships.

Anyway, as it now appears the Iraqi interior ministry had orderd the soldiers release, to which the local police could not or would not comply, and the soldiers had been taken from the police and handed over to local militia. So no "Iraqi soveriegnty" rubbish please.

Under the circumstances driving a Warrior through the police station seems quite restrained to me.

If you want to bash the British this resuce isn't the thing to pick on. You should be asking how it is that the militia seem to be in de facto control of the police in Basra.

[Templar Knight]

Iran....

[Adrian II]

If you want to bash the British this resuce isn't the thing to pick on. You should be asking how it is that the militia seem to be in de facto control of the police in Basra.

Never mind if the Brits were caught dressed as locals and killing Iraqi policemen. That would be just more sovereignty rubbish, right? Instead, let us concentrate on blaming everyone else.

BBC News

Basra governor Mohammed al-Waili said the men - possibly working undercover - were arrested for allegedly shooting dead a policeman and wounding another. The arrests sparked unrest in which Army vehicles were attacked. In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests.

[English assassin]

Never mind if the Brits were caught dressed as locals and killing Iraqi policemen. That would be just more sovereignty rubbish, right? Instead, let us concentrate on blaming everyone else.

Why should soldiers gathering intelligence not be dressed as locals? And why, if they were threatened by a militia infiltrated police force, should they not defend themselves? Seeing as that police force handed them over to the militia anyway? A miltia that is upset because we have recently captured one of their leaders

Hostage taking that picked on the wrong guys IMHO. No sovereignty issue here unless you think the militias are sovereign.

[Ja'chyra]

Never mind if the Brits were caught dressed as locals and killing Iraqi policemen. That would be just more sovereignty rubbish, right? Instead, let us concentrate on blaming everyone else.

BBC News

Basra governor Mohammed al-Waili said the men - possibly working undercover - were arrested for allegedly shooting dead a policeman and wounding another. The arrests sparked unrest in which Army vehicles were attacked. In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests.

Allegedly

[Adrian II]

Why should soldiers gathering intelligence not be dressed as locals? And why, if they were threatened by a militia infiltrated police force, should they not defend themselves?

Who says they shot to defend themselves? Assumptions, assumptions. According to The Independent they failed to stop at a police checkpoint and shot dead a policeman from their unmarked car.

[Adrian II]

Allegedly

Yes, everything in this case is alleged. Do you automatically trust the version of the British army after all we know about their provocations in Northern Ireland? Let us hold our fire and see what more we can learn. It has to be said that men without uniforms who fire at the police are nothing but insurgents and may be shot on sight. Those two should be very glad they are still alive.

[Ja'chyra]

On the evening of 19 September, Brigadier John Lorimer, Commander of 12 Mechanized Brigade, released the following statement:

"During the morning two British soldiers were detained at the Jamiat Police Station in Basra. Under Iraqi law, as MNF soldiers, they should have been handed over to the Coalition authorities. The Consul-General and I asked repeatedly for this but it did not happen.

"During the day we went to exhaustive lengths to achieve the hand-over of the soldiers. And in fact, as a result, we understand that the Iraqi Interior Minister personally ordered the release of the soldiers. However, that order seems to have been ignored.

"From an early stage, I had good reason to believe that the lives of the two soldiers were at risk and troops were sent to the area of Basra near the police station to help ensure their safety by providing a cordon. As shown on television, these troops were attacked with fire-bombs and rockets by a violent and determined crowd.

"Later in the day, however, I became more concerned about the safety of the two soldiers after we received information that they had been handed over to militia elements. As a result I took the difficult decision to order entry to the Jamiat police station. By taking this action we were able to confirm that the soldiers were no longer being held by the IPS. An operation was then mounted to rescue them from a house in Basra.

"I am delighted that the two British soldiers are back with British Forces and are in good health. We will be following up with the authorities in Basra why the soldiers were not immediately handed over to MNF as Iraqi law (CPA Order 17) says that they should have been.

"I should put the scale of yesterday's disorder into context. British armoured vehicles being attacked by a violent crowd, including with petrol bombs, makes graphic television viewing. But this was a small unrepresentative crowd (200-300) in a city of 1.5 million. The vast majority of Iraqi people in MND(SE) are law abiding and value the contribution made by coalition forces to maintaining stability and security.

"Minor damage was caused to the prison compound wall and to the house in which our two soldiers were held.

"It is of deep concern that British soldiers held by the police should end up being held by militia. This is unacceptable and I should stress that we won’t hesitate to take action against those who are involved in planning and conducting attacks against coalition forces.

"Looking ahead, I should stress that the situation in Basra is now calm. We will continue to work closely with local authorities to maintain this calm, and with the Iraqi Security Forces who capabilities we are helping to develop. It was a difficult day yesterday, but we have put this behind us and will move on."

link

[Sigurd]

I had a really good laugh during lunch today. Whilst speaking of the current situation in Iraq, one of my co-workers exclaimed: "It's Texas down there!"...

[English assassin]

Do you automatically trust the version of the British army after all we know about their provocations in Northern Ireland?

I do, more or less. Rightly or wrongly.

Those two should be very glad they are still alive

Its probably the feeling that it is better that they are alive and back with their unit than having their severed heads paraded on Al Jazeera that is part of the reason I am not too worried about Iraqi sovereignty. Gosh, it must feel like this being an American.

(Plus I admit a guilty little part of me does think its a bit badass busting into a jail with APCs)

[Geoffrey S]

The whole thing's curious. What happened exactly to cause the arrest in the first place? How did the soldiers end up with the Shia militia? The fact that a large portion of the police in the area basically consists of Shia militia and are hence difficult to control for authorities indicates this may not have been an official police action, but that assumption relies heavily upon trusting the BA version of the story. For the moment there really are too many unknowns to form a decent opinion, so I guess it'll have to wait.

[Ianofsmeg16]

'Good on them' I say, if your mates were kidnapped and you had the ability and the firepwer to get them back, would you?

p.s. that wasnt a political post, just me being my pro-military self.

[Goofball]

'Good on them' I say, if your mates were kidnapped and you had the ability and the firepwer to get them back, would you?

If they were kidnapped, yes I would. If they were lawfully arrested by the legitimate civilian authorities, no I wouldn't.

The problem with this case is that the info is too conflicting for us to be able to determine what was really going on.

[Ianofsmeg16]

If they were kidnapped, yes I would. If they were lawfully arrested by the legitimate civilian authorities, no I wouldn't.

The problem with this case is that the info is too conflicting for us to be able to determine what was really going on.

Yeah, i considered putting in the p.s Didn't mean that the soldiers were kidnapped.
my bad.

[Duke Malcolm]

The whole thing's curious. What happened exactly to cause the arrest in the first place? How did the soldiers end up with the Shia militia? The fact that a large portion of the police in the area basically consists of Shia militia and are hence difficult to control for authorities indicates this may not have been an official police action, but that assumption relies heavily upon trusting the BA version of the story. For the moment there really are too many unknowns to form a decent opinion, so I guess it'll have to wait.

The soldiers were working undercover, and it has been supposed that they are special forces.

The Interior Ministry ordered their release, but the local police didn't do as told, and handed them to a group of militia-men. The Army stormed the jail to confirm this, then proceeded to free the soldiers from a nearby house. I support the Army here, especially after the video of an army vehicle being firebombed, and the soldiers inside being pelted with stones and the like. The soldiers could not retaliate because the people were civilians, and various laws mean that they would be charged with something or another...

[Del Arroyo]

I support the Army here, especially after the video of an army vehicle being firebombed, and the soldiers inside being pelted with stones and the like. The soldiers could not retaliate because the people were civilians, and various laws mean that they would be charged with something or another...

I think that upon being attacked with firebombs they would have had some cause to retaliate, but they chose not to, and I think this demonstrates great restraint on their part.

DA

[Templar Knight]

They were (as the BBC has just said) SAS men who were arrested and then handed over to the local militia for some reason, so we done the right thing.

[ShadesPanther]

Do you automatically trust the version of the British army after all we know about their provocations in Northern Ireland?

I do. Its not a good idea throwing missles at soldiers and expecting them to do nothing like the PSNI at the minute.

[Adrian II]

I do. Its not a good idea throwing missles at soldiers and expecting them to do nothing like the PSNI at the minute.

Well, it is no use arguing with people who admit they automatically believe the official British version of events. Just for the record: do you guys believe the first official British version that said no violence was used to free the two, or the second official British version that said violence was indeed used to free them?

[Tribesman]

do you guys believe the first official British version that said no violence was used to free the two, or the second official British version that said violence was indeed used to free them?
Don't get technical Adrian

Assassin... No sovereignty issue here unless you think the militias are sovereign.
Unfortunately there is a soveriegnty issue here . There is a little ongoing process rather loosly termed Iraqification .
Part of this process has involved putting terrorists into government as political parties , as another part of this process militias attached to these "political parties" have been incorporated into the police and army .
So if the police and army are the militia then how can they be handed over to the militia when they are held by the militia in the first place ?
Oh my oh my , it does seem like a little bit of a quagmire , I wonder what the exit strategy is ?

[Geoffrey S]

The soldiers were working undercover, and it has been supposed that they are special forces.

The Interior Ministry ordered their release, but the local police didn't do as told, and handed them to a group of militia-men. The Army stormed the jail to confirm this, then proceeded to free the soldiers from a nearby house. I support the Army here, especially after the video of an army vehicle being firebombed, and the soldiers inside being pelted with stones and the like. The soldiers could not retaliate because the people were civilians, and various laws mean that they would be charged with something or another...

Hey, I can read the official Army version too y'know. But this whole business about how and why the soldiers were released, and the demonstrations against british troops basically ignores what ignited the situation; namely, that british soldiers (apparently) killed an Iraqi policeman. What happened? Why did it happen? Until that is cleared up this whole issue will remain hazy, as will any judgement based on unreliable facts.

Regardless of that, if the soldiers were handed over to militants by police forces the british army was probably within their rights to do things the way they did. And the restraint of the british troops confronted with violent demonstrators is commendable.

[Adrian II]

Oh my oh my, it does seem like a little bit of a quagmire, I wonder what the exit strategy is?

Oh deary dear.. Speaking of emergency exits, do the words 'Northern Ireland' ring a bell, Mr President? If I remember correctly, the two soldiers would be old acquaintances of you and Mr Templar Knight. Think F.R.U., Det, 14th Intel.

The Scotsman
Tue 20 Sep 2005

Defence sources have told The Scotsman that the soldiers were part of an undercover special forces detachment set up this year to try to "bridge the intelligence void" in Basra. The detachment draws on special forces' experience in Northern Ireland and Aden, where British troops went "deep" undercover in local communities to try to break the code of silence against foreign forces.

The troops are under the jurisdiction of the Special Reconnaissance Regiment that was formed last year by the then defence secretary, Geoff Hoon, to gather so-called human intelligence during counter-terrorist missions.

[Tribesman]

and the demonstrations against british troops basically ignores what ignited the situation; namely, that british soldiers (apparently) killed an Iraqi policeman.
The demonstrations predate the apparent shooting by several days .
The flash point prior to the alledged shooting was the refusal of the police to arrest a local leader, the leader is part of a party whose militia make up part of the police force .
So the British went out and made the arrest instead , which upset the locals who voted for the party , and the police that work for the government (and the party) of which the leader was a member and local representative .
Its all so simple really isn't it .
Has the quagmire turned into quicksand yet ?