Castle enhancements

**squidums** · 09-20-2005, 07:41

Does building Ballista Towers, Catapult Towers and Barbicans continue to give a defensive advantage after the castle has been upgraded.

I'm wondering wether to build these things or am I better off just moving straight on to the next level.

**EatYerGreens** · 09-20-2005, 08:24

They're cheap, they're quick to construct and it's handy to have these things on the shopping list when a new king takes over and you want to gain him the 'builder' V&V in as short a time as possible for as little cost as possible.

As well as beefing up your defences and making assault battles tougher for the AI, their description texts do say that they help reduce siege casualties to your side. It has to be said that AI castle assault battles are rare and the sit'n'wait routine is more common, so the second type of benefit is the most likely thing you'll see.

The castle build is 12 years, the citadel build is 20. It's up to you to decide whether or not it's better to do without the intermediate level of protection while you are waiting. I think you'll find that the next level of castle does incorporate these extra features anyway but, if I was in a position where the next castle level was more than my treasury can currently afford but I can afford the enhancements, then I will build them while I'm biding my time and saving up for the bigger purchase.

Obviously, if money was no object and 3-6 years of upgrading was an unacceptable delay in producing the types of troops the next castle will enable me to make, then I'll skip the upgrades and get building right away.

It also makes the difference whether the province borders onto another faction or not. If safely out of reach of enemies, I'd go straight for the next castle level and save time. At the border, it's a bot more touch and go. They only need to attack and siege you for a year and pull out to interrupt the build and you lose your money and have to start from scratch. In risky situations like this, I go for the cheap/quick upgrades and hope the extra defences are sufficiently off-putting to keep the enemy at bay while the more expensive builds are in progress.

Bit of a convoluted reply but I hope this helps.

**lugh** · 09-20-2005, 09:55

Nice post EYG, I don't have much to add after that!

On upgrading border castles though, I'll often put a halt to my expansion so I can beef up the garrisons to a properly intimidating level if I'm doing signifigant building.
I hate starting building citadels all along a five province frontier only to lose all those florins the next turn!

**Procrustes** · 09-20-2005, 16:32

Originally Posted by squidums

Does building Ballista Towers, Catapult Towers and Barbicans continue to give a defensive advantage after the castle has been upgraded.

I'm wondering wether to build these things or am I better off just moving straight on to the next level.

If you go straight to the next level those enhancents will be incorporated anyway. It's worth it to build them if you fear an impending attack.

**ToranagaSama** · 09-20-2005, 22:34

Originally Posted by squidums

Does building Ballista Towers, Catapult Towers and Barbicans continue to give a defensive advantage after the castle has been upgraded.

I'm wondering wether to build these things or am I better off just moving straight on to the next level.

Well, in my most recent experience, playing the Late era of the MedMod, I think it depends much upon how and to the purpose a player uses Castling.

You could have a castle upgraded to the max, but if you fill it full with units, it won't matter, as, generally, the castle will fall in a single turn. So all the upgrades are for naught.

In order to make the upgrades and castling, in general, truly effective, you CANNOT fill it to the brim with units. Less than a single unit to 3 units is the max than s/b be castled (dependant upon the size of the castle).

The purpose is that when forced to siege, you want the Castle to stand for as long as possible. Time enought to build, gather, and/or move a relieving army to the besieged province. On average this might take from 1 to 3 turns, sometime, in the worst case, a bit more.

If the castle is attacked, in the best case you wish for the Castle to do as much damged to the attackers as possible, primarly in the hope of beating back the attack, the battle ending with *you* still in possession of the castle.

THIS is where the castle upgrades come into effect.

With significant upgrades the AI might choose not to attack and wait you out. With an attack the AI might lose and be forced to wait you out.

To sum up, if you chose to invest in upgrades, you MUST also develop and utilize a *Siege* strategy that will make the most of them.

---

JFYI, if you are forced to fill the castle with units and the castle consequently will fall in a turn or two, a technique is to on the next turn sally forth with your force and put up a fight. Of course, one imagines that you have no hope of winning the battle, so the aim is to kill off some of your own units.

You could send all but your General on a suicide mission, watch them die, and then have your General run back to the Castle (of course a few stragglers will make it back as well). Now, you'll have just your General(, and probably a few others) left in the Castle, and the Castle will stand for a few turns, sometimes many turns (provided a large enought castle).

It has to be said that AI castle assault battles are rare and the sit'n'wait routine is more common, so the second type of benefit is the most likely thing you'll see.

The rarity is dependant upon whether one is playing Vanilla or a mod, and upon what Era one is playing. For example, in the Late era starts with a large or larger castle in every province. I'm playing the MedMod v4 beta, Late era, and the AI *will* attack your Castle, as is prudent.

**ajaxfetish** · 09-21-2005, 01:11

Earlier this year someone (possibly Procrustes? can't remember for sure) was experimenting with defensive sieges, upgrades, etc. He seemed to find one unit of Royal Knights & several organ guns an effective and virtually unstarvable garrison. If you wish to test your upgraded defenses, you may try leaving just those in a province to encourage invasion and then see if they will assault you.

Perhaps someone with a better memory will correct my errors, or you can search for the thread, as it had a lot of information relevant to the topic.

Ajax

**m52nickerson** · 09-21-2005, 01:22

I only use the improvements in boarder provences that are going to be so for a long time, and I don't want to have a defensive army stack. That way the AI will have to assault my small forces.

**Roark** · 09-21-2005, 01:28

I build the extras at Castle level and above.

In a province where I am building, say, a Military Academy, I won't bother with the extra add-ons, because I won't tolerate that province's production being halted by a siege. I will keep a standing army there instead, and get busy constructing the important stuff.

Any other provinces, though, where I can tolerate a halt to production, I'll construct the add-ons, and keep a small garrison to maximise siege duration. The enemy cops many more losses between years with ballista towers etc.

**EatYerGreens** · 09-21-2005, 09:02

Good posts from all, now.

I fully agree with ToronagaSama's advice about appropriate garrison sizes but must admit I was particularly slow in gaining an appreciation of its importance.

My previous problem was a tendency to (budget permitting) maintain full-strength armies in every single border province. The purpose of this was that I either wanted the enemy to attack, so I could have a go at pulverising them or, naturally enough, that I didn't want them to attack because there was a particular reason I didn't want to let go of that province. Result? Usually a long - and very dull - stalemate.

It was only very recently that I finally realised that MTW buildings don't get damaged or destroyed until the enemy has finally won the province outright, not when you've merely retreated to the castle. I could be mistaken but I seem to recall you'd get both demolition and siege, in Shogun, if you lost a battle so I could have developed this bad habit as a result of that. The full garrison was to make sure I never lost any battles in the first place, if attacked.

**Procrustes** · 09-21-2005, 15:54

Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

Earlier this year someone (possibly Procrustes? can't remember for sure) was experimenting with defensive sieges, upgrades, etc. He seemed to find one unit of Royal Knights & several organ guns an effective and virtually unstarvable garrison. If you wish to test your upgraded defenses, you may try leaving just those in a province to encourage invasion and then see if they will assault you.

Perhaps someone with a better memory will correct my errors, or you can search for the thread, as it had a lot of information relevant to the topic.

Ajax

Hi,

Sorry - it wasn't me... But all this discussion is making me want to comment - forgive me if I ramble a bit.

I recently used a couple of organ guns in a massive citadel defense - they caused tremendous casualties, but remember they only have eight shots (if you don't turn limited ammo off.) What I've found works really good is just some sturdy AP infantry - vikings, MS, halbs with some valor - heavy sword infantry works great, too. You get the advantage of a big moral boost because there is no-where to retreat - this really helps your pole-arms shine. I love to use dismounted knights, but they count as two men (because of the horse) when it comes to how many can fit in the fort. I like bringing a missile or two, too - some arbs will cause a steady stream of casualties.

You can always get the horde to assault you - stuff your fortification with as many men as you can and be prepared for an all-nighter.

The most important upgrade to get if you think you will be assaulted is the stone wall around your keep.

Consider using a cheap unit as bait - run up to the gate so that it opens and try to entice a couple of units to chase you back inside. If the gate closes behind them then you can swarm them. Kinda tricky, but fun - works best if there isn't a mass of enemy units right outside the gate or they will just keep streaming in and it won't close.

I really think that if you upgrade to the next level fort, all the interim upgrades appear whether you built them or not. I mean, if you go directly from a keep to a castle and then your castle is assaulted you will find you have ballista towers - even though you didn't build them separately.

One big advantage of any upgrades is that when the province changes hands after an assault the fortification will generally be degraded one level. If it has an upgrade, the upgrade disappears but you still have the fortification - otherwise the fortification is knocked back one level. (Will cost you a lot more to rebuild.)

Thanks for letting me babble. I'd appreciate any comments that come up - especially if it seems like I got something wrong.

Best,

**lugh** · 09-21-2005, 16:10

Originally Posted by Procrustes

Hi,

One big advantage of any upgrades is that when the province changes hands after an assault the fortification will generally be degraded one level. If it has an upgrade, the upgrade disappears but you still have the fortification - otherwise the fortification is knocked back one level. (Will cost you a lot more to rebuild.)

Best,

That doesn't always happen does it? I could've sworn that the chances decrease the higher up the tree you build, and the less likely it is that other buildings are destroyed when the castle is taken?

I like the trick with the bait unit! I'll have to try it the next time.

**Procrustes** · 09-21-2005, 19:15

Originally Posted by lugh

That doesn't always happen does it? I could've sworn that the chances decrease the higher up the tree you build, and the less likely it is that other buildings are destroyed when the castle is taken?

I like the trick with the bait unit! I'll have to try it the next time.

Hi,

I wouldn't say "always", but I think it's "most of the time." I'm not sure whether probabilities change depending on how far up the tech tree you are - good question.

Best,