WWII Medals

[Franconicus]

Kraxis, I do not the details of the system but for fighter aces there was a bonus by shooting a 4 engine plane and a kind of malus for shots at the eastern front. Maybe there was also some bonus for night fighters.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

One key theme here to keep in mind here.

Germany tended to award its highest medals for sustained performance in combat conditions.

The UK and especially the USA tended to make awards for specific instances of unusual valor.

This leads to a different "value" being placed on the medals entirely.



Part of the disparity in medals also reflects the amount of time/#s in combat.

Germany fought from 9/1/39 to 5/7/45, a total of 67 months. There were significant ground combat operations in roughly 60 of those 67 months. Germany also fielded an incredible number of fighting troops (in terms of percentage of available population).

UK & Commonwealth fought from 9/1/39 to 8/9/45, a total of 70 months. Significant ground combat operations were experienced in 50-55 of those months. The UK. despite this sustained effort, never fielded forces as numerous as the Germans.

USA fought from 12/7/41 to 8/9/45, a total of 45 months (Plus 6-7 months if you were an Atlantic Fleet destroyer crew during Roosevelt's illegal and undeclared war against the German U-boats). Significant Ground Combat operations were experienced in 32-34 of those months. In fact, some of the most elite units in the US armed forces had little more than 100 days of actual combat time. Several kraut units had racked that up BEFORE the start of the Russian campaign.


While the exact numbers probably may never be known, I suspect that if you were to divide the number of awards by the number of total sorties/days in combat PER Soldier/Airman, you would find the numbers coming much more into line with one another, especially given the disparity in the type/kind of event used to prompt an award.

Were there more brave Germans per capita than Yanks or Brits or Kiwis -- I doubt it. Did many more Germans have ample opportunity to display consistently effective performance in combat conditions -- bet your bippy.

Seamus

[CBR]

Germany had something like 4 times as many divisions as USA. The largest US deployment was at the Western front that lasted less than a year compared to the Eastern front that lasted nearly 4 years and involved a majority of the German divisions (150+ through most of the war) Compare that to the 38 Allied division under Eisenhower in September 1944 (20 of them US)

Of course other US divisions was active for a longer time in other theaters but overall there were a lot more German front soldiers fighting for a longer time than the US.

More soldiers + more fighting time should mean more medals given out if we even can compare medals at all. On average the German army lost more than twice the men per month on the Eastern Front than on the Western front and the different ratio between dead and wounded (1:3 and 1:6) also suggests generally more severe fighting on the Eastern front.


CBR

[Kraxis]

UK & Commonwealth fought from 9/1/39 to 8/9/45, a total of 70 months. Significant ground combat operations were experienced in 50-55 of those months. The UK. despite this sustained effort, never fielded forces as numerous as the Germans.

While I agree with you completely, I think you are far too generous to the UK & Commonwealth. Or at least you should upgrade the German to have more than just significant combat from july 41 and onwards.

The African and Italian campaigns were about the only sustained efforts at most of the time (until D-Day), there was some quite intensive fighting against Japan, but that was sidelines by inactivity for rather long periods, meaning over all a less intensive front. By comparison to the numbers on the eastern front they were mere sideshows. In fact when Montgomery bragged about his victory in Africa (but failed to mention the area) to a Russian general the Russian responded: "where did this skirmish take place?" Of course the Russian was taunting him and had perhaps a political agenda ("you sods let us do all the work"), but there is good deal of truth in it.

If we were to make an equation for each contry with 'Combat manhours' (meaning the time one man would have to fight every single fight for his country) I think it would be rather ugly how much more fighting there was in the east.

But CBR, don't forget that American divisions were in general very much overstrength while German divisions on th eastern front were often very much understrength (stupid Hitler wanting more divisions rather than stregthening the existing ones). So you can't compare them 1:1... Perhaps 2:1 would be better, but that still says a whole lot.

[CBR]

At that time there were about 2 million allied soldiers in France and the Germans had around 700 thousand so yes overall size was different. A US front soldier had around 2 in support while it was only 1:1 for Germans.

But one reason for the understrength German division was the fighting before September. Overall losses were around the same for both sides but the Germans could only replace a few of them compared to the Allies. The Germans had 3-4 million men on the Eastern Front. But IMO losses is a better way to see the difference between the Western and Eastern Front. In both 1942 and 43 most of the fighting was done on the southern part so although lots of divisions were deployed there they did not all engaged in the same intense fight.


CBR

[Kraxis]

Kraxis, I do not the details of the system but for fighter aces there was a bonus by shooting a 4 engine plane and a kind of malus for shots at the eastern front. Maybe there was also some bonus for night fighters.

The Russians had few 4-engine bombers, some were used of course (even bombing Berlin shortly after Barbarossa started), but JG52 was a frontline unit solely (one of their gruppen did have a period of protecting Ploesti though). It was not equipped for nightfighting. So it is quite likely that they shot down 1-engine planes most often, with perhaps 2-engine planes at a rate of 1:2-3

In the unit's history I can only find confirmed kills on Liberators (at Ploesti) as 4-engine kills. Of course a few Russian planes here and there is more than likely, but they were few and not likely to make much of an impact.
If we look at the numbers of kills westfront pilots got their KCs and OLs, then it becomes clear that the high command was downplaying the easternfront to make sure the pilots in the west didn't feel neglected (if the eastern pilots hightened the score for a KC and OL then the western pilots would never get them).
Also the extreme divisions of kills makes it clear to me that there was no certain scoreboard used. Often the awards were given at special points (50 for KC, 100 and 120 for OL, 200 and 250 for Swords). Interesting that so many awards were given at those points if a scoreboard was indeed used. It was given to the pilot becasue he crossed a magical mark.