How is phalanx vs maniple in EB?

**Conqueror** · 09-20-2005, 12:14

Now I know that the mod's a WIP and all. But given that we've been shown the new appearantly functional formations, I'd expect that most of the (so far previewed) Roman and Hellenic units' stats are at least close to what they'll end up being in the open beta. This leads to the question on the header. How well does the Roman maniple perform against the Makedonian phalanx? Assuming that they're supported by appropiate troops like peltasts, cavalry, etc.

Has this been tested much by the closed beta guys? I'm guessing that a custom battle against the computer has been tried, but that might not give very good results, especially if the AI breaks it's own phalanx line. Have the beta testers tried multiplayer matches of Romans vs Makedonians? If so, can you post results or opinions, or will you be beheaded by baktrian assassins if you reveal these things?

Just curious about this matter and craving for more info while awaiting the next preview

**Kikosemmek** · 09-23-2005, 00:43

It depends on the unit-vs-unit situation. For example, when I tested some of the phalanx units against maniple units (Carthaginian African Elites, pretty much like Roman maniples) they did what they did historically, they were held off by the pikes for some time but then, individually, started going to the sides and around the main front line of spear points. The maniple would defeat the phalanx in 1v1, I'd say. If the phalanx's supporting units on its flanks don't fail, it should hold off maniple formation infantry for quite some time, killing many before the enemy could reach them. It's as it should be, I'd say. I believe vanilla RTW had this behavior as well. It's only logical that the soldiers would chart their paths to the side of an object (the phalanx formation) that they're trying to get past or into.

**Conqueror** · 09-23-2005, 09:35

Interesting. So the key to winning with a phalanx against maniples would be to strenghten your flanks by any means and using mobile troops to encircle the enemy, while the phalanx buys you the time to do this? Anyway, thanks for the reply

**Mr Frost** · 09-23-2005, 10:10

Originally Posted by Conqueror

Interesting. So the key to winning with a phalanx against maniples would be to strenghten your flanks by any means and using mobile troops to encircle the enemy, while the phalanx buys you the time to do this? Anyway, thanks for the reply

It works well . No need to stress over the flanks too much if you have reasonable cavalry however .

Keep your phallanx line intact , put an elite phallanx unit on each flank if possible .

Don't waste skirmish units you might have by engaging the Romans in a classical manner , the typical Roman army has far too much close range firepower and you would be thus throwing them away and wasting the unit slots they occupied . Put those skirmishers behind and to the rear of each flank and if you have several , stack them deep and they can hold the flanks for a supprisingly long time .

Take a couple of units of the best long range missiles you can get {not artillery neccessarily however . It can do the job , but moves too slowly to keep up when your army needs to move} . Use these to thin out their skirmishers if they advance them separately {whilst waiting with their main force to see if you will move on them , possibly presenting an opening in your defense if you do} , but their real job is to engage their main body to make them attack you head on .They also are good for finishing off skirmish units etc that are left over when you crush their main body but are too tired to catch .

If they won't oblige and charge your pike/spears , group your entire phallanx line and click some spot directly behind them and march your phallanx wall into their main body .
Either way , group your cavalry in one big group , flank {preferably the side that has a cavalry concentration your massed cavalry can quickly destroy} , then charge !

A thing of beauty to observe I say !

**Moros** · 09-24-2005, 19:10

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

It works well . No need to stress over the flanks too much if you have reasonable cavalry however .

Keep your phallanx line intact , put an elite phallanx unit on each flank if possible .

Don't waste skirmish units you might have by engaging the Romans in a classical manner , the typical Roman army has far too much close range firepower and you would be thus throwing them away and wasting the unit slots they occupied . Put those skirmishers behind and to the rear of each flank and if you have several , stack them deep and they can hold the flanks for a supprisingly long time .

Well the EB peltestai are verry good you know.
I think if both had unlitimed javelins I wouldn't be surprised if they'd won (well not against the elite troops) but those peltestai are real murder machines if you use them correctly.

And yes if use phalanx in EB or even in vanilla you should always protect the flanks. That's lesson number one in "how to use a phalanx".

**Zero1** · 09-25-2005, 02:10

I disagree, I'd use skirmish units out front...if only to soak up the Pila from the Romans that way I wouldnt lose any of my precious, precious Phalangites.

**Kikosemmek** · 09-28-2005, 04:50

Originally Posted by Conqueror

Interesting. So the key to winning with a phalanx against maniples would be to strenghten your flanks by any means and using mobile troops to encircle the enemy, while the phalanx buys you the time to do this? Anyway, thanks for the reply

I never meant to state a universal function of a phalanx. In fact, I was very fond of using vanilla Spartans as both phalangites and heavy shock infantry because of their swordsmanship prowess. The fact that maniples beat phalanxes in general relies many factors, such as the sword skills of the maniple soldiers vs the ones of the phalanx, the armour of the maniple soldiers measuring how much spear they can take by the time a few of them start surrounding the enemy, and the phalangites' armour on the other hand, capable of holding out against those closing in to sword-battle while having the majority of the formation still taking the spearpoints' front end.

**jerby** · 09-24-2005, 19:02

Originally Posted by Kikosemmek

It depends on the unit-vs-unit situation. For example, when I tested some of the phalanx units against maniple units (Carthaginian African Elites, pretty much like Roman maniples) they did what they did historically, they were held off by the pikes for some time but then, individually, started going to the sides and around the main front line of spear points. The maniple would defeat the phalanx in 1v1, I'd say. If the phalanx's supporting units on its flanks don't fail, it should hold off maniple formation infantry for quite some time, killing many before the enemy could reach them. It's as it should be, I'd say. I believe vanilla RTW had this behavior as well. It's only logical that the soldiers would chart their paths to the side of an object (the phalanx formation) that they're trying to get past or into.

wich phalanx was this? pikemen, or hoplites?

i can see why the maniple won: dieing up fornt, cutting away at the flanks..

what doe sthe mainple (? checkerbord?) formation do against a strait line of pikes?