How is phalanx vs maniple in EB?

[Conqueror]

Now I know that the mod's a WIP and all. But given that we've been shown the new appearantly functional formations, I'd expect that most of the (so far previewed) Roman and Hellenic units' stats are at least close to what they'll end up being in the open beta. This leads to the question on the header. How well does the Roman maniple perform against the Makedonian phalanx? Assuming that they're supported by appropiate troops like peltasts, cavalry, etc.

Has this been tested much by the closed beta guys? I'm guessing that a custom battle against the computer has been tried, but that might not give very good results, especially if the AI breaks it's own phalanx line. Have the beta testers tried multiplayer matches of Romans vs Makedonians? If so, can you post results or opinions, or will you be beheaded by baktrian assassins if you reveal these things?

Just curious about this matter and craving for more info while awaiting the next preview

[Kikosemmek]

It depends on the unit-vs-unit situation. For example, when I tested some of the phalanx units against maniple units (Carthaginian African Elites, pretty much like Roman maniples) they did what they did historically, they were held off by the pikes for some time but then, individually, started going to the sides and around the main front line of spear points. The maniple would defeat the phalanx in 1v1, I'd say. If the phalanx's supporting units on its flanks don't fail, it should hold off maniple formation infantry for quite some time, killing many before the enemy could reach them. It's as it should be, I'd say. I believe vanilla RTW had this behavior as well. It's only logical that the soldiers would chart their paths to the side of an object (the phalanx formation) that they're trying to get past or into.

[Conqueror]

Interesting. So the key to winning with a phalanx against maniples would be to strenghten your flanks by any means and using mobile troops to encircle the enemy, while the phalanx buys you the time to do this? Anyway, thanks for the reply

[Mr Frost]

Interesting. So the key to winning with a phalanx against maniples would be to strenghten your flanks by any means and using mobile troops to encircle the enemy, while the phalanx buys you the time to do this? Anyway, thanks for the reply

It works well . No need to stress over the flanks too much if you have reasonable cavalry however .

Keep your phallanx line intact , put an elite phallanx unit on each flank if possible .

Don't waste skirmish units you might have by engaging the Romans in a classical manner , the typical Roman army has far too much close range firepower and you would be thus throwing them away and wasting the unit slots they occupied . Put those skirmishers behind and to the rear of each flank and if you have several , stack them deep and they can hold the flanks for a supprisingly long time .

Take a couple of units of the best long range missiles you can get {not artillery neccessarily however . It can do the job , but moves too slowly to keep up when your army needs to move} . Use these to thin out their skirmishers if they advance them separately {whilst waiting with their main force to see if you will move on them , possibly presenting an opening in your defense if you do} , but their real job is to engage their main body to make them attack you head on .They also are good for finishing off skirmish units etc that are left over when you crush their main body but are too tired to catch .

If they won't oblige and charge your pike/spears , group your entire phallanx line and click some spot directly behind them and march your phallanx wall into their main body .
Either way , group your cavalry in one big group , flank {preferably the side that has a cavalry concentration your massed cavalry can quickly destroy} , then charge !

A thing of beauty to observe I say !

[jerby]

It depends on the unit-vs-unit situation. For example, when I tested some of the phalanx units against maniple units (Carthaginian African Elites, pretty much like Roman maniples) they did what they did historically, they were held off by the pikes for some time but then, individually, started going to the sides and around the main front line of spear points. The maniple would defeat the phalanx in 1v1, I'd say. If the phalanx's supporting units on its flanks don't fail, it should hold off maniple formation infantry for quite some time, killing many before the enemy could reach them. It's as it should be, I'd say. I believe vanilla RTW had this behavior as well. It's only logical that the soldiers would chart their paths to the side of an object (the phalanx formation) that they're trying to get past or into.

wich phalanx was this? pikemen, or hoplites?

i can see why the maniple won: dieing up fornt, cutting away at the flanks..

what doe sthe mainple (? checkerbord?) formation do against a strait line of pikes?

[Moros]

It works well . No need to stress over the flanks too much if you have reasonable cavalry however .

Keep your phallanx line intact , put an elite phallanx unit on each flank if possible .

Don't waste skirmish units you might have by engaging the Romans in a classical manner , the typical Roman army has far too much close range firepower and you would be thus throwing them away and wasting the unit slots they occupied . Put those skirmishers behind and to the rear of each flank and if you have several , stack them deep and they can hold the flanks for a supprisingly long time .

Well the EB peltestai are verry good you know.
I think if both had unlitimed javelins I wouldn't be surprised if they'd won (well not against the elite troops) but those peltestai are real murder machines if you use them correctly.


And yes if use phalanx in EB or even in vanilla you should always protect the flanks. That's lesson number one in "how to use a phalanx".

[Zero1]

I disagree, I'd use skirmish units out front...if only to soak up the Pila from the Romans that way I wouldnt lose any of my precious, precious Phalangites.

[Divinus Arma]

I disagree, I'd use skirmish units out front...if only to soak up the Pila from the Romans that way I wouldnt lose any of my precious, precious Phalangites.

Why not both? Deploy in front until the first volley is thron, then have them rush back through the phalangites to safety. Best way is to have you phalanx with spears up until the skirmishers are past, then drop points just before those nasty romans charge.

[Mr Frost]

My point on skirmishers is they {good ones that is} can hold {deployed in strong blocks} a flank long enough in most situations and are cheap so you can afford to use the money and unit slots you would have spent on flexible melee infantry {to hold the flanks} on either more Phallanx or more Cavalry .

This works well in RTR .

I imagine the firepower of a Roman army should still be quite devistating in EB .






Note : when I origonally posted in this thread , I was in the middle of a bad bout of insomnia {story of my life !} and exhausted . I actually got confused as to the forum I was in and thought I was posting in a thread about RTR {Dyslexia+Insomnia = CONFUSED ! } .
Should still make sense though

[jerby]

well. readin gthe stats of teh hastati. i think teh days of romans destroying half an army by "fire at will"is over...

but back to the Q at hand. how effective is the maniple(checkerbord) formation against a phalanx in EB?

[Moros]

well honoustly I don't really tried but i my version of Eb there's somethings strange with the formation of my hastati but my dutch freind since I can't give you screenshots I'll do a test battle. tough i don't have the latest units stats.

owkay I had an heroic victory playing the romans. I used my Velites and slingerers to weaken they're peltestai. when they charged I let them run back and they ran into my hastati. They were no match for the hastati and the missiles of my velites, slingerers and principes. then I charged my hastati int the phalanxes. I pulled them back put in the principes then my two triarii backed them up and attacked with my missles units and hastati (at the flanks). my single units of equites just killed some of the routing peltestai.

I killed 668 units the 88 and I stopped the battle right after I won it.
Or I'm just brilliant or it's quite affective I'd say. (probably a combination of both )
But then again I'm not using latest stats and I set the formation manually.

[jerby]

well. that outta prove the maniple works in distorting the phalanx line..

i found it a pitty that in RTW my hastati Rout on contact with the pikemen..

have you tried out a clean pahalnx vs maniple? No Skirmishers, no horses? just a solid strait line of pikemen/hoplites versus pre-roman-maniple?

[econ21]

In RTW vanilla, if you keep a solid line of phalanx, you can walk over hastati with virtually no loss. Keep the enemy off your flanks and the phalanx wins easily. I can't imagine that EB has changed this, as it seems historical and otherwise the phalanx is pretty useless.

AI phalanxes need all the help they can get, as the computer keeps turning their flanks to you, inviting their piecemeal destruction. In some ways, I think EB should be balanced not to be "realistic" per se, but so that the game gives realistic outcomes when a human fights the AI. For example, there might be a case for inflating the combat values of phalanx units to make them more robust.

More generally, I sometimes wonder if the "realistic" combat system in RTR 6.1, for example, may actually make the game worse. In this model, cavalry and missiles only really work when attacking the flank, and heavy infantry needs to be flanked to avoid fighting long and hard. This is very realistic and I have a hunch EBs combat system may have similar features. But since the AI can't really flank, it's giving the human a big edge over the AI and so leading to potentially imbalanced and unrealistic outcomes.

It reminds me of those great Talonsoft wargames, East Front and West Front. Reluctantly the designers gave the option of assigning lower armour values to tanks' rear and sides. Of course, that is realistic. But they told you not to use the option against the AI, as it did not protect its flanks - allowing you to unrealistically slaughter "monster" tanks.

[Moros]

well the triarii I used can also form a phalanx but I barely had to use them I used backed my triarii and hastati up with them. most of the hoplites were hoplitai iphikrates or something like that .
wel I used skirmishers but they all threw their javelins against the greek peltestai.
wich were beaten by my hastati.
I just used the roman tactics from DA's guide. first send in the hastati then the principes and then the triarii. ofcourse I gave support to the weak areas and such.

ofcouirse note that the stats I used aren't the latest stats. And that even the latest stats are still a WIP.

[jerby]

hoplitai iphicrates.. That's the half-hoplite half-pikemen i guess..pretty much like vanilla's hoplites i guess.

nice to see..but no flanking was going on?

thanks for the answer..good to see your fanatically beta-testing

[Kikosemmek]

Interesting. So the key to winning with a phalanx against maniples would be to strenghten your flanks by any means and using mobile troops to encircle the enemy, while the phalanx buys you the time to do this? Anyway, thanks for the reply

I never meant to state a universal function of a phalanx. In fact, I was very fond of using vanilla Spartans as both phalangites and heavy shock infantry because of their swordsmanship prowess. The fact that maniples beat phalanxes in general relies many factors, such as the sword skills of the maniple soldiers vs the ones of the phalanx, the armour of the maniple soldiers measuring how much spear they can take by the time a few of them start surrounding the enemy, and the phalangites' armour on the other hand, capable of holding out against those closing in to sword-battle while having the majority of the formation still taking the spearpoints' front end.

[Moros]

hoplitai iphicrates.. That's the half-hoplite half-pikemen i guess..pretty much like vanilla's hoplites i guess.

nice to see..but no flanking was going on?

thanks for the answer..good to see your fanatically beta-testing

well at the moment I'm working on sounds and I'm gonna try to write a buildings decription. So I'm not really testing at the moment.

flanking? you mean me or them. they tried but well their cavalry didn't really likes it whe my triarii popped up.