Should British Forces Pull out?

**Don Corleone** · 09-21-2005, 19:33

Well, the grudge match between the USMC and Her Majesties armed forces is fine, because we have people represented from both sides.

But you know, if I was French, I would have just about had it with everyone.

I know we all think 'they know we're just kidding', but they probably don't. If I was French, I'd be getting banned right about now. If somebody calls you a coward constantly, but when you call them on it they say "you know I'm just kidding, can't you take a joke", you're going to get really pissed off. What's more, France has a glorious military history. The only thing that might actually allay their rage is the sheer foolishness of it. I may not like the games they're playing on the international scene right now, and I may take issue with people who refer to them as an 'ally' of the United States, but come on... enough is enough.

*Sidenote: Mon amis, please note, the majority of the Franco-bashing is coming from your cousins across the channel, not your step-children across the pond.

**Don Corleone** · 09-21-2005, 19:44

Rant mode off. Now, on a lighter note, did anybody else read the title of this thread and have a Beevis & Butthead moment... "Heheheh, he said pullout... heheheheh". I was going to make some crack about "If they haven't brought protection with them, for the love of God, make sure to pull out". Sorry, sometimes certain expressions bring out the worst in me.

**Viking** · 09-21-2005, 19:50

If they pull out and civil war errupts all their work and all the soldiers they lost would be for no purpose. I`d say stay until one can be sure that such a thing cannot happen.

**PanzerJaeger** · 09-21-2005, 20:35

But you know, if I was French, I would have just about had it with everyone. I know we all think 'they know we're just kidding', but they probably don't. If I was French, I'd be getting banned right about now. If somebody calls you a coward constantly, but when you call them on it they say "you know I'm just kidding, can't you take a joke", you're going to get really pissed off. What's more, France has a glorious military history. The only thing that might actually allay their rage is the sheer foolishness of it. I may not like the games they're playing on the international scene right now, and I may take issue with people who refer to them as an 'ally' of the United States, but come on... enough is enough.

Oh come on, the US gets bashed constently and Britain has an entire thread about the crumbling of its society.

French people can and do deal out just as much as they get. You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain.

"I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me." - Patton

^Now that is taken generally as a shot at France, but Im not sure if it wasnt an crack about the German military.

**Don Corleone** · 09-21-2005, 20:46

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Oh come on, the US gets bashed constently and Britain has an entire thread about the crumbling of its society.

French people can and do deal out just as much as they get. You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain.

And when people bash the US constantly, I call them on it. Of course humor here there is fine. But honestly, if all the time, you're hearing how cowardly everyone thinks you are, don't you think you'd get really sick of it?

I'm sure the French have a lot of nasty things to say in the local salon about America. But we're not talking about Joe's corner bar or Jean's corner salon. We're talking about a place we've all agreed to discuss issues in an at least somewhat civil fashion. Constantly referring to the French as cowards and pushovers doesn't quite fit that bill in my book. If we want them to show us some respect, we should begin by treating them the way we'd like them to treat us.

**Adrian II** · 09-21-2005, 21:25

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

But we're not talking about Joe's corner bar or Jean's corner salon. We're talking about a place we've all agreed to discuss issues in an at least somewhat civil fashion. Constantly referring to the French as cowards and pushovers doesn't quite fit that bill in my book.

No Frenchmen in saloons will ever read this forum. We have only a handful of active French members here who are without exception intelligent, reasonable, witty and polite. It is a shame to treat them this way.

**Meneldil** · 09-21-2005, 22:14

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

French people can and do deal out just as much as they get. You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain.

Yeah, I guess you know all what's being said in France very well. I mean, you visited France so many times, and with Fox spreading its 'balanced' news, you're probably aware of the most recent french issues.

Sarcasm off : Seriously, we have other issues to deal with than spending our time flaming USA, making fun of how they lost a war against a bunch of asian communists, got their ass kicked at Pearl Harbor, funded some bloody dictators in South America, etc. etc.

Oh and, btw, that was a joke. Hoho, haha.

As for the original topic, to which almost none answered, I think none should pull out now. You went there, and you stay until your job is done. If you pull out, I hardly see how the US would handle the already catastrophic situation.

**Goofball** · 09-22-2005, 22:14

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Rant mode off. Now, on a lighter note, did anybody else read the title of this thread and have a Beevis & Butthead moment... "Heheheh, he said pullout... heheheheh". I was going to make some crack about "If they haven't brought protection with them, for the love of God, make sure to pull out". Sorry, sometimes certain expressions bring out the worst in me.

Heheheh, he said "crack"... heheheheh...

**Tribesman** · 09-22-2005, 22:41

The problem is that the British can't withdraw without the Americans and others doing the same.
Gonz ; Why not ? Other nations have withdrawn their troops .

**GonZ** · 09-23-2005, 01:06

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The problem is that the British can't withdraw without the Americans and others doing the same.
Gonz ; Why not ? Other nations have withdrawn their troops .

Ok. Let me rephrase that. The Brits could pull out without the Americans doing likewise but that would just create more of a problem (read bloody mess) than already exists.

What "we" (used loosely as I technically am a brit) could do is set a deadline to say we will leave at a certain point - this might actually galvanize the states into coming along with "us".

It might also help sooth anti brit sentiment in Iraq - bleed a bit of pressure off in the short term.

The big problem as I see it is the almost impossibility of coming up with a force to replace the coalition. A diverse bunch of "Iraqis" with the backbone necessary to hold the place together... can you see that happening?

**PanzerJaeger** · 09-22-2005, 22:47

I'm not attempting to fool anyone. Sure, we *DO* badmouth the USA. But then, who doesn't ? I mean, I'm fairly sure way more than 50% of the world population don't like either your president or your country.
In France, we don't really like you for a lot of reasons, such as jealousy (as you stated. Many french still think their country could be a world power, while this is obviously not the case), or simply because our cultures are different (we are a rather leftist country, we usually dislike religion). In muslim countries, they dislike (or rather hate) the US, because you're seen as the infidel, the crusader, or whatever other crap like that.
As for myslef, I'm sad to say that the more I read this forum, the more I dislike the US. There are some american patrons whose posts are IMO actually quite interesting to read (I'm speaking about liberal & conservative posters), but they can't match with all the "muslims are all religious fanatics", "french are all cowards", "we should bomb them back to the neolithic" "socialist are traitors, they're screwing up our world" and all other hatred posts usually posted by some americans.

Theres no need for French people to like America, or for Americans to like France. I personally dont like many american's obsession over being "liked". "Why arent we liked? What can we do to make them like us?" I say, who cares?

The western world is like an office. I dont particularly like some of my co-workers, but ive got to work with them and they me so we can both go home with a paycheck. The same concept applies here..

**Don Corleone** · 09-22-2005, 23:24

I think there's a difference between having a sycophantic need to be liked and treating people with basic respect. Yes, we could all go around and stick our fingers in each others eyes, just to prove we're independent enough to do it. But where does that bring you? I try to treat even people I loathe with courtesy. Does that make me a suck-up? I don't say things that aren't true, such as "Boy, I really admire your work ethic" to the lazy bum I used to report to or "I'm so glad the French are there to back us up at every possible opportunity".

But a few things: 1) why dwell strictly on the negative? 2) you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar 3) I might need that person's assistance 4) acting disrespectfully is more of a reflection on you than the target. Yes, we all know, France is not in America's camp. And we're not in theirs. That doesn't mean we can't act decently towards each other and maybe even strike up a few friendships at the individual level. Sheesh.

**Papewaio** · 09-23-2005, 00:22

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

The western world is like an office. I dont particularly like some of my co-workers, but ive got to work with them and they me so we can both go home with a paycheck. The same concept applies here..

One of the ladies here got fired yesterday.

The team she worked in this morning was ecstatic, she was rude, obnoxious, loud and could have been an extra for an orc in Lord of the Rings but she was too damn ugly.

However even though I clearly did not like her, I was polite and greeted her nicely. In fact it seemed to put her on the back foot that despite being rude, I was being polite.

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As a team leader you find that you can manage people or lead them. Both methods work better with rewards and stick, but stick alone makes for a poor morale environment. Also to be a leader you have to be prepared to show that you will use the stick on yourself.