Should British Forces Pull out?

[Adrian II]

A common rejoinder to calls to pull the Coalition troops out fast has always been that since the Coalition "broke" Iraq, it should "fix" it. But I am afraid I am not seeing any evidence that the Coalition can fix it.

I tend to agree, all things considered -- from afar, that is...

Simon Jenkins had a forceful piece in The Guardian this morning in which he brings some historical perspective to the question.

[Blair's] axiom is that western soldiers are so competent that, wherever they go, only good can result. It is their duty not to leave Iraq until order is established, infrastructure rebuilt and democracy entrenched.

Note the word "until". It hides a bloodstained half century of western self-delusion and arrogance. The white man's burden is still alive and well in the skies over Baghdad (the streets are now too dangerous). Soldiers and civilians may die by the hundred. Money may be squandered by the million. But Tony Blair tells us that only western values enforced by the barrel of a gun can save the hapless Mussulman from his own worst enemy, himself.

Signalling withdrawal would, it is said, give a green light to the gangs and private militias, to revenge attacks, ethnic cleansing and even partition. That threat is no longer meaningful since these are all happening anyway. The militias have reportedly infiltrated at least half the police and internal security forces in each area. Barely a tenth of the army is considered loyal to the central authority. That a Basra police station should be vulnerable to al-Sadr irregulars is appalling.

The 150,000 foreign troops on Iraqi soil are overwhelmingly committed to self-protection. They do not do law and order any more. Power is finding its new locus, in the mafias, sheikhdoms, militias and warlords that flourish amid anarchy. Where there is no security, the gunman is always king.

The alleged reason for occupying Iraq was to build security and democracy. We have dismantled the first and failed to construct the second. Iraq is a fiasco without parallel in recent British policy. Now we are told that we must "stay the course" or worse will befall. This is code for ministers refusing to admit a mistake and hoping someone else will after they are gone. By then the Kurds will be more detached, the Sunnis more enraged and the Shias more fundamentalist. A hundred British soldiers will have died.

America left Vietnam and Lebanon to their fate. They survived. We left Aden and other colonies. Some, such as Malaya and Cyprus, saw bloodshed and partition. We said rightly that this was their business. So too is Iraq for the Iraqis. We have made enough mess there already.

[Brenus]

“*Sidenote: Mon amis, please note, the majority of the Franco-bashing is coming from your cousins across the channel, not your step-children across the pond.” No problem my friend, my answer is coming. See below:

“best soldiers in the French Army are not French”: Wrong. The tradition wants the French become Foreigners but more than 60% of the Legionnaires are French. And the officers are French. That the proofs that under French Command and proper training, even English and US can be good soldiers…

“a topic not even about France ends up bashing French people... now thats facinating.”. I was just waiting to see when it will happen…

“lol to invade france and conquer it would only take us about 6 weeks if that, the Germans did in a short time so why cant we”: You did try during 100 Years and lost the war, remember?

“King of England” who needs to pay homage to France, because I mentioned above, the English lost the war. Ok, they lost the Duche de Normandie, so they are release from their duty…

“Well I think france should go in! And train the Insurgents. the war will be over in weeks!” No need, the US don’t need help to be defeated, they are perfectly self sufficient.

“that's the right way to fire an rpg” Pure legend, French haven’t RPG (that is Russian) but LRAC (89 mm). Only American can made a mistake in loading it. You put the arrow in front the arrow, turn a quarter, and that is ready.
And didn’t exist in 1940…

“You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain” Do you? Because I think the French are quiet restrain in the topic. They could say: We told you… Where are the WMD, the birth of democracy?

“I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me” I agree with him. The French will stop the Americans to root like they did in Kaserine Pass (where the French hold the line aside with the British) and in the Ardennes (where the French stopped the German offensive toward StrasbourG)…
Sorry US friends, but he deserved it…

And I like US. I went there and I loved it… I don’t like US politic, but as PzJg said, every country has the right to defend his own interest. I like the US citizens (well, I don’t know every body) but I don’t like what the US are doing… Because there is one question that YOU have to answer: How the most loved Country in the world after WW2 became one of the most hated one? Why the country which was symbol of freedom watches her flags burn in any demonstrations around the word? Well, change the world…

[Kagemusha]

You forget that the Marines have their own airwing. We dont need the navy to move us around. We also have Marine airbases. In my 4 years in the Marine airwing neither I nor anyone in any of my squadrons nor any aircraft from those squadrons served on a carrier.

So it would be an paratrooper operation?What i mean that in a scenario Marine Corps against British defence forces,you should first destroy The Royal Navy and RAF in order to get to Britain, dont mean to be disrespectfull but how were you plannig on to take out the RAF with your airwing.could turn out pretty nasty.

[Adrian II]

So it would be an paratrooper operation?What i mean that in a scenario Marine Corps against British defence forces,you should first destroy The Royal Navy and RAF in order to get to Britain, dont mean to be disrespectfull but how were you plannig on to take out the RAF with your airwing.could turn out pretty nasty.

Lads, would you awfully mind opening your UK-US war room in another thread? It is rather off-topic.

[Kagemusha]

Lads, would you awfully mind opening your UK-US war room in another thread? It is rather off-topic.

Okay Adrian,i stop rambling about it.

[Adrian II]

Okay Adrian,i stop rambling about it.

Pleas don't, it is fun. Just open a new thread.

[Meneldil]

French people can and do deal out just as much as they get. You should hear what's said in the streets of France about America, much less Britain.

Yeah, I guess you know all what's being said in France very well. I mean, you visited France so many times, and with Fox spreading its 'balanced' news, you're probably aware of the most recent french issues.

Sarcasm off : Seriously, we have other issues to deal with than spending our time flaming USA, making fun of how they lost a war against a bunch of asian communists, got their ass kicked at Pearl Harbor, funded some bloody dictators in South America, etc. etc.

Oh and, btw, that was a joke. Hoho, haha.

As for the original topic, to which almost none answered, I think none should pull out now. You went there, and you stay until your job is done. If you pull out, I hardly see how the US would handle the already catastrophic situation.

[Kagemusha]

Pleas don't, it is fun. Just open a new thread.

I think the battle is between the Brits and the Marines.As a Finn i think it s best to remain neutral in this matter.

[Brenus]

Now, I can do back to the topic.
I was horrified when I saw the British soldier escaping from his APC in flame…
Yes, the coalition forces must withdraw. When, how, that is the question.
The problem I see is that the US/UK coalition lost the initiative. They have the illusion of it, like the US in Vietnam where studies showed that more than 90% of the battles were started by VC and end by him.
Last year, we heard than the US army will crush the Insurgent/terrorists strong hold of Falludjah. This year it is another town I forgot the name. Last year the puppet master was Syria, today it is Iran. Last year the terrorist were all foreigners and Sunnites, today there are Shiites… Enemies are just queuing.

So the US/UK has two options: To go with dignity (Kabul USSR withdrawal) with flags and parades, flowers and kisses followed by civil war. Advantage of this one, you don’t have to welcome refuges on your soil…
To go with less dignity but faster (Saigon US kind of) watching the army and police you trained either dropping their weapons in the canal, selling them to the mafia or the insurgents or participating side by side with the insurgents of the pillaging of your embassy/ies, burning of documents and boat people (you have to welcome some as refugees, morally speaking)…

The only hope is “showing who the boss is” option. It didn’t work in Vietnam, and apparently doesn’t work in Iraq. The Insurgents know they can’t defeat the US army, but they know elections are coming. And more time the foreign armies stay, more the populace will be tired. Accidents, incidents, misunderstanding and other problems will grow and all that will go for them.

So, the answer is as soon as possible if you prefer the first option.
Just wait for the second.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm sure the French have a lot of nasty things to say in the local salon about America. But we're not talking about Joe's corner bar or Jean's corner salon. We're talking about a place we've all agreed to discuss issues in an at least somewhat civil fashion. Constantly referring to the French as cowards and pushovers doesn't quite fit that bill in my book. If we want them to show us some respect, we should begin by treating them the way we'd like them to treat us.

Again, why are you concentrating on the french? Just about any nationality that has any sort of big presence on this forum gets bashed.. its just part of multinational conversation. I dont hear the French whining about it, because they know they do it themselves from time to time. They are big boys, they can take a french joke just as much as we can take an American joke.

How the most loved Country in the world after WW2 became one of the most hated one? Why the country which was symbol of freedom watches her flags burn in any demonstrations around the word? Well, change the world…

Jealousy.

Yeah, I guess you know all what's being said in France very well. I mean, you visited France so many times, and with Fox spreading its 'balanced' news, you're probably aware of the most recent french issues.

Yes, I have been to france more times than I would like.. and I talk with friends who live near the french border. You're not fooling anyone.. we both know you love to badmouth the USA, just like a lot of americans badmouth the french.

Example:

Seriously, we have other issues to deal with than spending our time flaming USA, making fun of how they lost a war against a bunch of asian communists, got their ass kicked at Pearl Harbor, funded some bloody dictators in South America, etc. etc.

See what the surrender monkey's say about America, Don?

[econ21]

A general request: please do not engage in country bashing. It just causes offence and is against Org rules. People have been sent warnings about this in the past, but let's not impose on TosaInu's goodwill any more.

[Brenus]

“the surrender monkey's”: You forgot cheese eater: My Grand Father was definitely one. Not a monkey and didn’t surrender. He probably killed more Germans than any US soldier. He was a partisan in the SNCF (French Railway) and blew up German trains. The 2 SS Das Reich loved people like him…

“Jealousy”: Of what?

PsJg, you didn’t read what Melneldil wrote, did you? He said they have something else to do.
In Vietnam/Indochina, the French didn’t make a better job than US… DBP was a crushing defeat. The French got the Kabul version of withdrawal but still…

And I don’t care about jokes. I care about insults, even if I know that insults dishonour only those who make them.

[PanzerJaeger]

And I don’t care about jokes.

Exactly! Thats the point. The French, English, and Americans bicker amongst themselves but have the same interests at heart..

[Franconicus]

lol to invade france and conquer it would only take us about 6 weeks if that, the Germans did in a short time so why cant we :D

That's obvious! You are not Germans
By the way, didn't the Germans kick the Brits out of France too? Wasn't a big deal.

[Incongruous]

Juat you wait already in top secret labs we have an army of tea drinking fanatics just waiting to conquer europe.

[King Henry V]

That's obvious! You are not Germans
By the way, didn't the Germans kick the Brits out of France too? Wasn't a big deal.

Yes but we were outnumbered ten to one. Next time we should do it together.

[Brenus]

“Yes but we were outnumbered ten to one. Next time we should do it together.” It was tried and it finished in Bouvines where the French defeat the Holly Roman Emporor and the English King (John Lackland, if I remember well).

[GonZ]

Should British Forces Pull out?

Yes. They can't stay there forever. All coalition troops need to withdraw at some point. The problem is that the British can't withdraw without the Americans and others doing the same.

However bad (imo) the decision to invade was - that decision has been made and the Brits have to stick with it.

Sadly I can’t see a clean and peaceful way of pulling out. Pull out now and civil war will be the most likely result. Pull out later and more British and US lives will be lost and the British and US taxpayers will get fleeced even more.

It's an almighty balls-up.

But at some point the Iraqi people - will have to fight it out amongst themselves. Sadly that will probably lead to a huge war zone involving many of the neighbouring states. I see no future for Iraq as it looks on the map now. In 20 years time I see possibly three or four new states in place of those straight line borders on the map now. The human cost will be huge.

Sell your cars now and buy push-bikes is my advice. Oil prices are only going to go up.

[King Ragnar]

what i cant understand is why the hell to people car if a civil war breaks out the country is no where near us so it wotn really affect us.

[GonZ]

what i cant understand is why the hell to people car if a civil war breaks out the country is no where near us so it wotn really affect us.

I think the civil war is inevitable as occupation can't last forever.

Why do people care?

The human cost - death and suffering.

Another reason to care is the resulting wave of refugees that will be seeking sanctuary somewhere.

Another reason to care is the impact on the region as a whole and the resulting rising oil price and the global instability that will result from that.

How do people not care about a civil war?

[Adrian II]

Pull out now and civil war will be the most likely result. Pull out later and more British and US lives will be lost and the British and US taxpayers will get fleeced even more.

We might as well accept that there is a civil war going on, that the country is falling apart, and that foreign influences are taking over parts of it under the noses of the Coalition. Today I read the latest report from Anthony Cordesman, a respected CSIS-scholar whom I admire for his calm, well-reasoned analyses in which deep concern for democracy and political realism always compete in a very transparant fashion. Alas, this time round his conclusion is totally negative. And the report (dating from August 5) does not even take the recent security break-down in the South or the rapidly worsening strategic situation with Iran into account...

Iraq's Evolving Insurgency

[Meneldil]

Jealousy.

Probably one of the reason, but certainly not the only one.

Yes, I have been to france more times than I would like..

Well, next time, send me a PM and I'll offer you some drink once you land in France

and I talk with friends who live near the french border. You're not fooling anyone.. we both know you love to badmouth the USA, just like a lot of americans badmouth the french.

I'm not attempting to fool anyone. Sure, we *DO* badmouth the USA. But then, who doesn't ? I mean, I'm fairly sure way more than 50% of the world population don't like either your president or your country.
In France, we don't really like you for a lot of reasons, such as jealousy (as you stated. Many french still think their country could be a world power, while this is obviously not the case), or simply because our cultures are different (we are a rather leftist country, we usually dislike religion). In muslim countries, they dislike (or rather hate) the US, because you're seen as the infidel, the crusader, or whatever other crap like that.
As for myslef, I'm sad to say that the more I read this forum, the more I dislike the US. There are some american patrons whose posts are IMO actually quite interesting to read (I'm speaking about liberal & conservative posters), but they can't match with all the "muslims are all religious fanatics", "french are all cowards", "we should bomb them back to the neolithic" "socialist are traitors, they're screwing up our world" and all other hatred posts usually posted by some americans.

Furthermore, there's a lot of good reasons to badmouth the french (hell, I spend most of my time bitching at my country mates). But our military history is certainly not a valuable one.

[Louis VI the Fat]

My, I didn't visit this thread since the first few posts. Like Anglosaxon intelligence about Iraq in 2003, I never guessed it would turn into the violent quagmire it did.

Meneldil, Brenus, may I suggest you stop provoking the British? They're a bit sensitive about this whole Iraq disaster that they were lured into by Blair's 'weapons of mass deception, ready to fool Britain in 45 minutes'.

They already regret not having listened to French advice. No need to rub it in - they will not make that mistake twice. To make the joke they wish they would've come up with, and said with some healthy self-derision, trust on them not to forget about France now that they need some advice on how to pull out of a lost war.

[Brenus]

“Like Anglosaxon intelligence about Iraq in 2003, I never guessed it would turn into the violent quagmire it did.” Unlike the Anglo-Saxon Intelligence Service you didn’t know that it isn’t the first time than England invaded Iraq. In 1942, I think, just before to attack the French in Syria, because regime change more favourable towards the Nazi, the English invaded Iraq. And the Iraqi army didn’t resist and immediately started a guerrilla. And the pamphlets distributed at this period were quiet word for word the one printed two years ago…
And with the French experience in Algeria, you could have known that things are never simple, even when you win the military battle…

Now, it is time to draw the line. Nothing went like imagine (I can’t say planned). Iraq never officially surrenders and it not the unilateral declaration from G. W. Bush which change the fact that to make peace you need the agreement of both parts. I pass on the different blunders such disbanding the army without taking their weapons and the rush to secure the oil; all went wrong.
Now, will the US and UK wait the bill to increase, in money and lives before to face the reality?
More they wait, more the insurgents are growing. Worst, the people (the Shiites) who welcome them are now turning against them.
Only the Kurds stay out of the conflict, keeping their forces to size Kirkuk and the oil fields when the civil war will start or develop without western intervention… I agree with AdrianII on that, the civil war is on.
So, the choices are limited: withdrawal with dignity or routing… If they go now, they will be able to pretend (even if the Constitution is a failure) that they brought democracy to Iraq and the Iraqi failed to develop and keep it. It will be morally better for them. I speak of the governments here…

[Goofball]

Rant mode off. Now, on a lighter note, did anybody else read the title of this thread and have a Beevis & Butthead moment... "Heheheh, he said pullout... heheheheh". I was going to make some crack about "If they haven't brought protection with them, for the love of God, make sure to pull out". Sorry, sometimes certain expressions bring out the worst in me.

Heheheh, he said "crack"... heheheheh...

[Tribesman]

The problem is that the British can't withdraw without the Americans and others doing the same.
Gonz ; Why not ? Other nations have withdrawn their troops .

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm not attempting to fool anyone. Sure, we *DO* badmouth the USA. But then, who doesn't ? I mean, I'm fairly sure way more than 50% of the world population don't like either your president or your country.
In France, we don't really like you for a lot of reasons, such as jealousy (as you stated. Many french still think their country could be a world power, while this is obviously not the case), or simply because our cultures are different (we are a rather leftist country, we usually dislike religion). In muslim countries, they dislike (or rather hate) the US, because you're seen as the infidel, the crusader, or whatever other crap like that.
As for myslef, I'm sad to say that the more I read this forum, the more I dislike the US. There are some american patrons whose posts are IMO actually quite interesting to read (I'm speaking about liberal & conservative posters), but they can't match with all the "muslims are all religious fanatics", "french are all cowards", "we should bomb them back to the neolithic" "socialist are traitors, they're screwing up our world" and all other hatred posts usually posted by some americans.

Theres no need for French people to like America, or for Americans to like France. I personally dont like many american's obsession over being "liked". "Why arent we liked? What can we do to make them like us?" I say, who cares?

The western world is like an office. I dont particularly like some of my co-workers, but ive got to work with them and they me so we can both go home with a paycheck. The same concept applies here..

[Don Corleone]

I think there's a difference between having a sycophantic need to be liked and treating people with basic respect. Yes, we could all go around and stick our fingers in each others eyes, just to prove we're independent enough to do it. But where does that bring you? I try to treat even people I loathe with courtesy. Does that make me a suck-up? I don't say things that aren't true, such as "Boy, I really admire your work ethic" to the lazy bum I used to report to or "I'm so glad the French are there to back us up at every possible opportunity".

But a few things: 1) why dwell strictly on the negative? 2) you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar 3) I might need that person's assistance 4) acting disrespectfully is more of a reflection on you than the target. Yes, we all know, France is not in America's camp. And we're not in theirs. That doesn't mean we can't act decently towards each other and maybe even strike up a few friendships at the individual level. Sheesh.

[Papewaio]

The western world is like an office. I dont particularly like some of my co-workers, but ive got to work with them and they me so we can both go home with a paycheck. The same concept applies here..

One of the ladies here got fired yesterday.

The team she worked in this morning was ecstatic, she was rude, obnoxious, loud and could have been an extra for an orc in Lord of the Rings but she was too damn ugly.

However even though I clearly did not like her, I was polite and greeted her nicely. In fact it seemed to put her on the back foot that despite being rude, I was being polite.

====

As a team leader you find that you can manage people or lead them. Both methods work better with rewards and stick, but stick alone makes for a poor morale environment. Also to be a leader you have to be prepared to show that you will use the stick on yourself.

[GonZ]

The problem is that the British can't withdraw without the Americans and others doing the same.
Gonz ; Why not ? Other nations have withdrawn their troops .

Ok. Let me rephrase that. The Brits could pull out without the Americans doing likewise but that would just create more of a problem (read bloody mess) than already exists.

What "we" (used loosely as I technically am a brit) could do is set a deadline to say we will leave at a certain point - this might actually galvanize the states into coming along with "us".

It might also help sooth anti brit sentiment in Iraq - bleed a bit of pressure off in the short term.

The big problem as I see it is the almost impossibility of coming up with a force to replace the coalition. A diverse bunch of "Iraqis" with the backbone necessary to hold the place together... can you see that happening?