Study:US is losing ground in education.

[Kagemusha]

Here is a link to the article.Do you have any suggestions why?Im asking this because the article states that US spends second most money in the world/per pupil.

[Don Corleone]

This is the $1,000,000 question over here Kagemusha. We've long trailed the rest of the Western world and it would appear we're beginning to lag behind some third world nations as well.

There's several different schools of thought on this.

Some would argue that it's because teachers are doing a poor job. Even though we're spending the money, teachers waste time in class by talking about extraneous things (such as diversity, gay rights, etc). They'd also say our education system no longer rewards excellence or discourages underperformance. In an effort to make all children feel accepted, children are forced to conform to each other's limitations, guaranteeing that all children are limited to the lowest common denominator.

Others would take the exact opposite approach. They would say that the fact is, even with the money we're spending, we're way behind and not spending anywhere near enough. Our class sizes are too large, there's not enough computers, textbooks, aides and other resources available. They would say that poor self image is causing kids to abandon hope and give up and by nursing their self image, by abandoning grading systems, children would perform better.

I think there's some truth in both viewpoints. There's also two other factors: 1) I think the average American is a worse parent than the average European. I'm about as pro-American as one can get, but I think this is one way we lag and it shows in the development of our children. We're not willing to make sacrafices and actually donate time and take our child's learning as our personal responsiblity. There ARE Americans that exhibit this, I'm talking about populations data here. 2) For a number of reasons, due to both Democratic and Republican policies, American schools tend to be more violent and less secure than schools in other developed nations. We can argue the causes for it all day long, but we have to face facts when it comes to the effects.

[Kagemusha]

Thank you for the indormation Don. The article also mentioned the diversity between schools over there.How big diversity are we talking about,because we are talking about the basic´s of learning here?I understand that on higher education the choosing of right school can be crusial.But on basic schools?

[Don Corleone]

Thank you for the indormation Don. The article also mentioned the diversity between schools over there.How big diversity are we talking about,because we are talking about the basic´s of learning here?I understand that on higher education the choosing of right school can be crusial.But on basic schools?

Diversity can be an issue. Our schools are funded at the local level, so if you live in the poorest neighborhood in the country, chances are you receive a more meager educational spending than say a kid attending school in Beverly Hills. As El Slapper said, many American parents who can afford to choose to send their kids to private schools. All of this would explain why we have a larger standard deviation than other countries, but not a lower mean.

If you mean how much class time is spent in distractions, as I said 'some' would argue this (not necessarily me). I don't honestly know how much time teachers spend reading "Heather has Two Mommies" and stuff like that. Generally, when those arguments come up, they tend to be anecdotal extrapolated to the system at large. "The reason kids are doing bad is because teachers spend all day talking about racial equality. I know this, because my kid brought home a homework assignment on the Civil Rights movement". Again, this is 'an' argument, not mine.

The fact is both the Left and the Right are going to have to slaughter some sacred cows if we want to fix the problems with our education system. I don't see that happening by either side.

[monkian]

Isn't a massive part of the educational budget spent on sports rather than actual academic education ?

[Franconicus]

I know that there is a big diversity in the US. Is there a difference in the education between East and West, North and South?

[Don Corleone]

Isn't a massive part of the educational budget spent on sports rather than actual academic education ?

NO! In fact, that's a big sore point over here, that many schools don't even offer physical education class anymore (that, art & music are the first things to get cut).

I know that there is a big diversity in the US. Is there a difference in the education between East and West, North and South?

The biggest difference isn't North/South East/West. It's urban versus suburban. Remember, America is populated very differently than Europe. Over here, everyone saves up to move OUT of the cities, leaving behind the rich, who can afford to send their kids to private schools and the poor. The middle class are out in the countryside. Because of this, you can begin to understand why urban school districts underperform suburban ones. Not that there's a direct correlation between money available and performance. Rural schools receive less money then suburban ones, but in general, tend to outperform them.

Kangemusha... the reasoning you're going through is what the debate about American education over the past 30 years has done. Good questions, have you. Answers, equally good, you have not. (Well, neither do we, so I don't mean that as a dig)

[Kagemusha]

So it looks pretty stagnant.I think one answer to basic education problems for all our countries could be the return to basics.I have also noticed that my sisters children,who are now 4th and 5th grade have some problems on basic skills.The children are tought complex things before grasping the basics.I can understand what that does to a childs self confidence if he or she is more fragile ,then others.I also think that the children that are adopting things faster then other shouldnt be left to stand around.There should be more special groups for those children.So when i read what i just wrote,first thing that comes to my mind is more money.So we are where we left from.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Get rid of the damn teachers union and your halfway there.

[Franconicus]

My wife's friend and her husband went to Texas to work as teacher for one year. They said that the teachers are judged with the mark the pupils get. So every teacher tries to improve the marks (not the performance). Before a test every question and solution was explained to the pupils. Then the test was run. Even then the result was very bad. So she started to help the pupils even during the test. Is this common?

In Germany there is no real conceppt to judge a teacher.

[el_slapper]

And what worries me is that France seems to be following USA's path. Far behind, but exactly the same path

And when I'll have children, I'll have to explain my protestant love that our children shall go to the catholic(i.e. private, most private schools in France are catholic) school to have some future

*---------------------------------------*

Anyways, one of the problems seems to be the lack of respect towards the teachers. Most western countries use some foreign teachers, & every one coming from the 3rd world is shocked by the lack of respect shown by both the students & their parents. 3 reasons I see(and maybe others):

1)loss of prestige of the profession of teacher. Teachers are underpaid compared to the "winners" of today's time.
2)loss of discipline. Excess of discipline is dictature, but it seems that it's been over-compensed.
3)increase in origins of knowledge. today's kids can learn through books, TV, internet..... and also from school.

Point 2 could be corrected, but will face many political oppositions. Points 1 & 3 are inherent to west's world today's essence, & seem unchangeable to me. In other words, I can see how to limit the problems, but not how to solve it.

[Crazed Rabbit]

In an effort to make all children feel accepted, children are forced to conform to each other's limitations, guaranteeing that all children are limited to the lowest common denominator.

This is a very important reason. The schools fall over themselves making every remedial class for morons who are lazy and stupid, and spend a fraction of that effort on teaching the smart kids.

Crazed Rabbit

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Don C:

Pretty good summary. I'd add in that teachers are hamstrung by increasing regulation and extraneous requirements heaped upon them in this era of unionization and the Department of Education. You rightly point to the biggest single issue, however, as being parental involvement. If the parents don't push education, most kids will never discover it on their own. Then school becomes one more thing to be endured rather than utilized.

Sadly we live in an era where a significant proportion of Americans confirm that they do not read for enjoyment (beyond noting the game scores at the bottom of a sports broadcast screen) and read only what is absolutely required of them professionally. Take the following comparison.

One of the most popular books in recent history, the latest in the Harry Potter series, sold well over 10 million copies in the U.S. alone (perhaps 18 million) -- in a nation of more than 270 millions.

In contrast, Thomas Paine's pamphlet Common Sense sold over 500,000 copies while our population at the time was roughly 2.5 million people -- at least 30% of whom were illiterate! The implied readership of this pamplet is over half the total population -- virtually everyone who could read had read it! Still more who could not read would have gathered to listen to one of the local literati who could.

We are drowning in available information, and most Americans can't be bothered to do more than look at a few pictures and listen to some carefully primped talking head drone on about Brad Pitt or J-Lo.

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

Plus our students are burdened in high school with the daunting task of having to master basic algebra and geometry. Trig, Calculus, Advanced Algebraic functions, Advanced Chemistry, and all of Physics are usually optional subjects. Is it any wonder our first year college attrition rate is so appalling?

Sorry, heading off to do some paperwork, I'll start blowing capillaries if I continue this much longer.

Seamus

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Plus our students are burdened in high school with the daunting task of having to master basic algebra and geometry. Trig, Calculus, Advanced Algebraic functions, Advanced Chemistry, and all of Physics are usually optional subjects. Is it any wonder our first year college attrition rate is so appalling?

In my day we burdened wiith all these things and led the world in education. We had 3 types of classes back then. Regents classes. The hardest but needed to go to college. Basic classes. Easier but you had little chance of furthering your education and finnaly remedial. This was reserved for those who were somehow handicapped.And it wasnt like those type classes today. No one wanted to be in it as most who were in them could be considered retarted. There was no bilingual education. No special classes for every little thing. No special rules put in by the federal government. No teachers union. Again to me its a matter of too much federal intervention in our schools.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I hear you Gawain.

When I escaped High School in 1982, I did so with far more than the required number of "credits." A credit was considered to be one year of one subject.
18 credits over 4 years were required for a diploma.

Required: 4 English, 3 History/Government, 2 Science, 2 Math, 2 Physical Education/Health, .5 Business (usually typing) .5 Driver's Education, and 4 "electives" from the aforementioned or from Foreign Languages, Music, Business Principles, Art, Construction, or Cosmetology.

The Maximum available in Math or Science was 5, English was 4 (with only one Advanced version course), History 3 (no advanced), Business 2 (no economics). Few things in the curriculum were compelling, and only 3 or 4 teachers truly challenged me to perform.

I spent far more time during my high school years playing D&D than on studying and still managed a 2.8/4.0 grade average (not impressive). The saddest note is that my 2.8 put me in the 13th percentile of my graduating class. 86% of the class had lower grades -- and this was among those getting diplomas, the drop-outs were long since gone.

Fortunately, I managed to wake up before attending college.

Seamus

[BDC]

Schools here get money as long as people pass. So their aim is to make as many pass as possible, at the expense of people who actually have a real chance of doing well if some effort is just put into it.

My biology AS class started at 20 people. At the end of the year 2 dropped it voluntarily despite passing, 10 failed completely and 2 were kicked out because they only got an E. So 50% of the class got absolutley nothing from it, and dragged everyone else down simply because a C at GCSE is considered good enough to try and do an A level in a subject...