Using Horse Archer's on MP

[ichi]

I've always enjoyed our games mate, you're quite tough. Gawain is the master of the LBs right now, he can present several difficult issues, especially in dez.

ichi

[L'Impresario]

Any combination of LBs, pavs, HA, other archers can work. Depends on the circumstances and many other factors, just like any army configurations. One can refuse to give battle to the enemy pavs in many ways. You can always also attack as a team the opponent that has the pavs with the most losses/fatigue.
The maps play a big role in this issue as well. Defending a good position will require some pavs at least. Playing a 4v4 in a medium map doesn't really call for any purely missile units, as getting close to the enemy requires a few secs, the losses from missiles can't be that high to make up for the extra units. One can rush and win or lose, but his missile won't have played a primary role. Bringing pavs is just a convention
that helps teams to coordinate but lets other problems kick in (esp. for the attacker), like fatigue, esp. in steppes or relatively flat maps, where pav fights can last over 10 minutes.

Even with two pavs and two LB's your at a disadvantage to the opponent with more pavs because LB's can't hold the line, fire to quickly, and then their just weak infantry leaving you vulnerable to Ichi's Szekes

Again, no great theories can be made without generalising, but it's useful seeing this in an other light. Theoretically when you are defending, your pavs will win over the enemy ones. If on "loose" formation, then they can reduce their attrition to minimim levels (maybe throw in an armour upgrade or two) and hold at bay more than an enemy pav each. If enough time lapses, you can be sure than most pavs will have reduced effectiveness. 2 LBs can allow concetrated and rapid firepower, something hard to do with pavs, and depending on your target, the enemy will use HA/other archers/reserve pavs(if he's brought at least 2 more than you) to either get the LBs killed fast, or find another weak side that now's left without fire cover from the LBs. But thats where having more melee units can help. Before the enemy reacts, and after you prepare a countercharge that will eventually lead to an all-out conflict, those lbs can get easily more than 10-15 kills each and then stay behind the line to shoot idle . Now, if the enemy has had more pavs and the extra HA (szekely included), it's very possible that you'll end up with an extra hard charging unit (as inf tends to be more expensive, though even v0-1 spears can help at times). Ofcourse it'll be up to micromanagement at this point, not to mention allied action.

And LBs can hold btw, just not head on;)
Naturally fresh pavs in square formation, or in 2-3 ranks but at a good defensive angle, in the back of the inf line can get those fk or even a ck bogged for some good time...provided no routers come their way and they are almost full in strength.

[Eternal Champion]

When I said "LB's can't hold the line" all I meant was take a spot or fill in on the pav line. If you don't fill your "frontage" you leave more opening to a flank attack. Part of the reason for the Pav line is to stretch your enemy and hinder their ability of massing troops and maybe more important, provide cover for yours. So even armored up LB's would take to many losses, fire to quickly, and do to little damage to your enemies pav's "on the line". Even if one attempts to refute my thinking you have the issue of cost. At V0 LB's cost 350 to a Pav's 225, a A1 the cost goes to 390, A2 it jumps to 446. You can buy nearly two Pav's for one LB A2, not a cost effective solution your money can be better spent. You'd be letting a good unit get shot up and killed by cheap but deadly junk, if used as a replacement for Pavs.

I'm not really advancing or refuting the theory of the Pav line as that is another completely separate topic. Nor am I saying that that LB's aren't deadly or useful as I already said I usually counter HA's with them and will use them to guard my flanks often. All I'm saying is LB's aren't a good replacement for Pav's in a Pav role, they have better and much more valuable uses.


No matter where your personal thinking on this issue might be, this is a good disussion.

[L'Impresario]

Well, I didn't mention anything that is refuted by the above :)
It's quite self-explanatory, lbs are lbs and pavs are pavs. But now that you mention it, you can also find a different role for the LBs, and I'm sure you 've seen many people use it from time to time. That's 4 LBs and many cav to skirmish the pavs. Provided that you got more cav and you can accept some fk losses, you can force the enemy to attack, as you aim for the inf line, while your cav try getting the pavs. When the opponent sends cav after your own, you shoot the cav and bring additional to create a new round of chasing. In the short term, you 'll be able to inflict more cav damage and if you get in the process a good deal of pav kills, the urge for the enemy to get you can really make him plunge forward. Either that, or he's too bored and wants to get over with this ordeal (true after 5 consecutive games of intense skirmish heh).

Another army of the same philosophy often used with Turks is (prolly "was", as nowdays you see less players trying it) a 8+ hybrid army, with fast alans that go for the pavs , while the first (cheaper) line of archers shoots whatever inf lies close and the second gets the incoming cav. Later on you can start switching the lines one at a time, thus retreating in order but with a steady missile coverage, but the main objective is still getting the pavs with the cheap cav or making the enemy believe that by moving your whole army forward, you 'll attack.

[Geezer57]

I've been reading this thread with interest, and figured I might be allowed to comment. Have played multiplayer extensively, but never online (still sorting out router and firewall issues at the moment) - only on my LAN at home, etc. My friends and I have had many memorable 1 vs. 1, 2 vs. 1, and 2 vs. 2 battles, and we all love the game!

My analysis of this thread indicates some exasperation over the dominant role of pavise arbalesters, who are certainly not historically accurate in an open field battle. Heck, they were almost exclusively used in the M-TW time period for sieges only. And I've noticed the rise in use of the "Valor" type rules (like the ones posted here http://p219.ezboard.com/fclanwars354...opicID=4.topic ) aimed (at least in part) on bringing some balance back to the MP game.

So why not agree to simply ban the use of pavs, except when in a castle siege? It would certainly add more historical flavor, would eliminate the boring pav vs. pav duels, and would also eliminate all the concern over cav vs. pav feints, etc. If it's ahistorical, unbalanced, and not fun, why not get rid of it?

[t1master]

i used to hate pavs and the long pav wars, but now i look forward to them. there is a very intricate game that is played during the pav shoot out. the underrated pav, perhaps one of the best unit in the game for the cost... just be sure to keep em on hold/hold. ;)

imo, if you are using longbows to shoot missle troops you are wasting your florins.

i also have an opinion on the 'valor rules' and followed the thread and reasoning behind their adoption, however, after more than a few games of the v1/v2 max, i still see the cavs as the most powerful, now because the cavs are some of the only units to have a decent starting morale. in all the valor rules games i played last night, i didn't see one spear unit, just lotsa cavs and even swords... the v1 max also makes alot of the fun units, like kerns, useless. ;)

[L'Impresario]

Someone had been talking but vacation made me take a break for the "equal valour for all " faction;)
I try to find some interesting army combinations but most units can be discarded for a good cav swarm. Ofcourse this happens partly to players not being used in using spears, and also that most swords are very cheap compared to spears, and thus you can use em to pin the spear units,allowing you to spend the extra money on cav.
But it's a better game than 10k vi in rps terms.