Ancient Geek: The Language

[Sjakihata]

This thread will be for everyone who is, in one way or another, interrested in ancient greek.
In here can be discussion mostly on the language itself (eg. vocabulary, grammar, etc), however, there're room for ancient greek culture as well (which is pretty much, in my definition, everything related to the ancient greeks)!

I hope this thread will work as a base for exchanging ideas, tips&tricks and other relevant material (links etc).

For example, if you have trouble with a sentence or something, type it here, and hopefully, together, we can decypher it.

My first question, how do I type (on the PC) with ancient greek letters?

[L'Impresario]

Quite simple I'd say. A google search will suffice I guess. Here are some links:

http://www.matchfonts.com/pages/w_foreign.html

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Help/Athenian_Font.html

[Sjakihata]

thank you very much.

I should have been more specific, how do I type with ancient greek letters on the forum, was what I meant.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Just enable your Windows 2K/XP to use extended keyboards. Let me dig out the readme of my own designed keyboard layouts. (Shameless self plug!)

 ● INSTALLATION:

   The installation is fairly smooth given that you follow the required steps:

   ► Make sure that you have enabled multi-language support in Windows.
   ► Add the "Greek" [changed to fit the thread - M.] input language in <Details...> Alternative route: <Language Bar (rt.clk.) → Settings...>
[removed to fit the thread - M.]
   ► Add the "Greek" or "Greek Polytonal" keyboard under the "Greek" language. [changed to fit the thread - M.]

Then switch to Greek using the language bar or Alt + Shift and type. The forum is Unicode enabled.
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[edyzmedieval]

I really like the topic.

Ancient Geek: The Language

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Wow, I did a search for Ancient Geek and got over 1.5 million hits. Must be a real language.

[Sjakihata]

I really like the topic.

Ancient Geek: The Language

funny, who did that? and why can I not edit it back?

[Advo-san]

The text in my signature is in Ancient Greek. (The translation is in small format english.) Do the letters appear to your screen? It is the script on the tomb of the Marathon fighters.

[Dutch_guy]

This thread will be for everyone who is, in one way or another, interrested in ancient greek.
In here can be discussion mostly on the language itself (eg. vocabulary, grammar, etc)

I have had 2 years of Ancient Greek at my school , and since school started 2 weeks ago- Im 2 weeks in to my 3rd year.

Am pretty good at it - trying not to sounds to arrogant there - so I couldd be of some help , grammar , sentence wise.
Though maybe I'll miss some important grammar translations , when translating the greek from Dutch to English...

And as for the tips, If you have any , Id love to hear , in the mean time , I'll think of some myself.

[Mouzafphaerre]

The text in my signature is in Ancient Greek. (The translation is in small format english.) Do the letters appear to your screen? It is the script on the tomb of the Marathon fighters.

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It does. The forum is Unicode enabled, so that we can type in عربیة, Ελληνικα, Русский and anything available within the Unicode Specification.
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[Advo-san]

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It does. The forum is Unicode enabled, so that we can type in عربیة, Ελληνικα, Русский and anything available within the Unicode Specification.
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@mouzafphaerre:
That is good to know.
P.S.Now, about your name... It reminds me of a greek word: ΜΟΥΣΑΦΙΡΗΣ reading MOUSSAFIRIS and means the visitor, the guest. Was this what Haeredin Barbarossa was called? Or does Mouzafphaere and Barbarossa has nothing to do with moussafiris?

[L'Impresario]

Erm, I think that's not a greek word heh. It is derived from the turkish "misafir"(dunno if it's a loan from farsi or arabic), although I'm sure that someone will say it's derived from "μούσα"(muse) & "φέρω" (bring) :p

AFAIK "Mouzafphaerre" would be certainly a very weird turkish word as the syllable "Mou" to say the least isn't common at all (not to mention the "aerre" part heh).

[Advo-san]

Erm, I think that's not a greek word heh. It is derived from the turkish "misafir"(dunno if it's a loan from farsi or arabic), although I'm sure that someone will say it's derived from "μούσα"(muse) & "φέρω" (bring) :p

AFAIK "Mouzafphaerre" would be certainly a very weird turkish word as the syllable "Mou" to say the least isn't common at all (not to mention the "aerre" part heh).

True, the word μουσαφίρης (moussafiris) is from turkish origin as are many words in the modern greek vocabulary... Suggesting that it derives from the words μούσα and φέρω would be both meaningless and incorrect, since -φίρης cannot derive from any form or tence of the verb φέρω. Nevertheless, μουσαφίρης is a greek word, simply because we use it and understand it, just like the word arachnofobia is an english word, even though it is from greek origin (ΑΡΑΧΝΟΦΟΒΙΑ in greek means fear of spiders aswell).

My turkish is rather bad, so can you tell me whether misafir means "the guest" or "the visitor", or something similar?

What are your suggestions about Mouzafphaerre then? I mean, if it is neither misafir or moussafiris....

[L'Impresario]

Yes, the meaning of the word misafir is exactly the same with its greek "version". Well, I usually group words in accordance to their original derivation, helps me better to make linguistic comparisons without losing track of the context in which the word in question developed . Ofcourse one could say it's hellenised turkish word;)
But it's true that loans from languages that are integrated into quite different ones tend to be considered an organic part of them if they get through the usual transformations, in our case a vowel one and the addition of the "-is" ending. But if there is an equivalent that describes the exact same thing (eg. επισκέπτης) then it's natural that some people place such words into a realm of the language better described as argotique, and not a true part of it, or at best a word that's bound to disappear after a generation or two.
I can safely state tho that the boundaries between languages aren't made from concrete. Even though this is a bit irrelevant with the field of language interaction, I'd go with its "a-theoretical attitude" equivalent.

BTW I can't explain the name, and it'd be better to ask him directly than theories that we'll regret making

[Byzantine Prince]

It's not a hellenized turkish word. It's a turkified arab word, that pretty much every country in the lower balkans uses. Greek however has other words for musafir, so it's not really needed. This was not a problem until 1983 when the government went in favor of dimotiki and changed official language to the bastardized form and away from the pure form.

But Mouzaphaerre is not meant to be musafir. The guy has told it's from a game or something.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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misâfir (Arabic مسافر; probably [AFAICT] from the root سفر, which means travel/wander) means guest or visitor in context. A Turkish word with close meaning is konuk.

Mouzafphaerre is simply a bastardization (with pseudo-French spelling) of muzaffer (from Arabic مضفر), which means triumphant, victorious etc. and is a common proper name.

Hayreddin Barbarossa was a 16th century Ottoman corsair, then admiral, who was one of the most prominent figures of naval warfare in his age.
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[L'Impresario]

Yep, I suspected it..it's a turkified arab word that was hellenized;) It was integrated into Greek from Turkish, not Arab. One could say that's why the noun is "μουσαφιρλίκι", with the distinctive -lik ending.

BTW (and to return to the greek language but not in its ancient form, at least for now) such words didn't "appear" because of the adaption of demotiki, they were a result of the interaction between the various people that inhabited the same territories. Katharevousa was an artificial way of expression, people spoke their own language. The debate about it was intense during the beginnings of the 20th century, in the 1980s, it was just the reasonable thing to do.
Languages aren't constructions (well real,lively languages), they evolve through time and adapt to modern needs and forms of expression. Many a magnus opus of greek literature is written in demotiki, or demotiki with some words in katharevousa which had a special role in those texts.

[Byzantine Prince]

it's a turkified arab word that was hellenized;)

Yeah, and bulgarified and albanified, and a lot of others. We all know the story.

such words didn't "appear" because of the adaption of demotiki

Dimotiki refers to the common people's language. That's quite obvious.

Katharevousa was an artificial way of expression, people spoke their own language.

Care you elaborate? Katharevousa is perfect. Every language is artificial.

Languages aren't constructions

[L'Impresario]

Sorry, but I really can't understand what you want me to tell or answer you.

Maybe should I comment on "katharevousa is perfect" ? Still, I can't elaborate on what is meant with the word "perfect" here, nor on the sentence from my post that you quote above it, as you seem to have answered that yourself.

Also I don't find it necessary to address the "artificiality" of every language, as you probably use it in a very different context than my own. I'm talking about evolution of languages and the way they interract, not its standardisation and the social needs that cause it.

[Rosacrux redux]

Dimotiki (or Dimodis) is actually the Greek language as it has evolved through the ages, the language not of the commoners, but of everybody before the creation of the indipendant Greek state.

After that and seing how Greek society tried to copy Western Europe, there had to be a distinction between "common" Greek and "noble" Greek. So, some scholars created (and that's why L'impressario talks about "artificiality") a new language, based at large on Koene Greek, but with lots of rather dubious changes and also rather peculiar (if not outright weird) additions and rules (grammar, syntax).

Of course, the demodes Greek was by that time pronounced "vulgar" and "common", and people should only write in Katharevousa... a language that resisted any change, any addition, any betterment, any interaction with reality. You can't seal a language in a jar, can you?

[Byzantine Prince]

So, some scholars created (and that's why L'impressario talks about "artificiality") a new language, based at large on Koene Greek, but with lots of rather dubious changes and also rather peculiar (if not outright weird) additions and rules (grammar, syntax).

They weren't weird. They were the syntax and grammar of a new form of greek derived from the byzantine and ancient.

Of course, the demodes Greek was by that time pronounced "vulgar" and "common", and people should only write in Katharevousa... a language that resisted any change, any addition, any betterment, any interaction with reality.

It didn't need any betterment. There is a reason that pretty much every other major language group uses greek scientific and concept words extensively. Why should greek accept, what are usually just slang words, into it's overall vocabulary?

The language of the ancients was no mear accident of linguistic evolution. It's a science onto itself.

[L'Impresario]

They weren't weird. They were the syntax and grammar of a new form of greek derived from the byzantine and ancient.

"ψάριον" anyone?
"Derived" isn't the right word to use. The "katharevousa v. demotiki" issue is a very complex one. There is a whole bibliography devoted to its various aspects and you can clearly see if you read some books from both factions, that they represent a deeper social antithesis. Needless to say, you can collect most common arguments in favour of katharevousa, generalise 'em a bit and publish the "Greek Conservative's Bible". Also note that hyper-katharevousa and its motherships "logiotakismos" and "attikismos" were provoked especially by Falmerajer's claim in the 1830s that moderns Greeks weren't ancestors of the ancient ones, and Greek academics and politicians, utterly shocked, decided to deny any linguistic arguments against the continuation of their nation - so back to the drawing board for the poor Greek language.
OTOH, most moderates and left wingers ,esp after 1930, would advocate the usage of the people's language. They 'd also extend their account of the conflict to elitism and many would add a marxist approach (such as Giannis -or Gianis if you prefer- Kordatos; I'll mention his writings later on). Here's a link that also deals with the paradox presented into the next paragraph: http://www.okde.org/divers/mk_grammatiki_0105.htm

Lately members of left wing parties try to "defend the national language", either due to populism or plain idealogical confusion (a form of communism with weird nationalistic extensions- but against every nationalism at the same time heh...maybe with a single exception ;) ).
The opposite had occured as well, as it's revealed by Psiharis' case. He in turn supported dimotiki for nationalistic causes..."for the language to become a weapon against our enemies". Well, that was quite in fashion during the "national struggle to liberate Macedonia".

Back to Kordatos. In his book about the "γλωσσικό μας ζήτημα", he places in the beginning of its prologue Luther's words:
"Don't ask in Latin how to write good German. Ask your mother at home, the children in the streets, the common people in the market. Look them in the mouth how they speak and write that way"
In the last paragraph of the prologue he even attacks the word "δημοτική" itself. I'll transfer it in greek first, then try to translate it in english at some point.
" Σαν υστερόγραφο έχω να προσθέσω πως ο όρος δημοτική μυρίζει καθαρευουσιανισμό. Οι παλαιοί είπανε τα λαικά τραγούδια της Ρούμελης και της Ηπείρου δημοτικά άσματα. Βέβαια, στα αρχαία χρόνια λέγοντας δήμο εννούσαν τη λαϊκή μάζα, μα στα δικά μας χρόνια η λέξη δήμος δεν είναι πια ζωντανή. Θα έπρεπε λοιπόν να λέμε λαϊκή γλώσσα. Αυτό είναι το πιο σωστό. Μα μια που επικράτησαν οι όροί: δημοτική και δημοτικισμός και δημοτικιστές, δεν μπορούμε να τους αλλάξουμε. Ό,τι έγινε, έγινε."

The language of the ancients was no mear accident of linguistic evolution. It's a science onto itself.

Ancient Greek is a language. And a pretty chaotic one IMO.
Any chances of getting Ancient Geek to the same status?

[Advo-san]

Yeah, I 'd love some psarion... Each time I see a psarion with my ommatia I feel like eating it...

[Byzantine Prince]

You guys have something against writing words in full?

[Advo-san]

You guys have something against writing words in full?

What do you mean? Psarion and ommatia are full words... They mean fish and eyes in katharevousa, and IMHO they are quaint, funny and pointless.....

[L'Impresario]

The ancient greek words being "ο ιχθύς, (-ύος)" and "ο οφθαλμός (-ού)". Sorry for not using the polytonic system, I haven't got it installed yet (laziness the reason).

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

nice thread. I studied classical Greek for a couple of years at school.

I look forwards to seeing how it develops.

[Suraknar]

What do you mean? Psarion and ommatia are full words... They mean fish and eyes in katharevousa, and IMHO they are quaint, funny and pointless.....

Psarion in Demotiki is "Psari"

And Ommatia, in Demotiki is "Matia"

The difference not really that big... I think "Katharevoussa" was a result of a more Nationalistic Tendencies, following the Rebellion of 1821, and liberation from Turkish Occupation...in an attempt to bring the Greek language closer to its Ancient Greek Roots and eliminate any Linguistic Influence from that Occupation that lasted more than 300 years.

This is not different than in many other Countries, like for instance germany under Nazi rule, the language underwent a similar transformation.

Is it artificial? No the language itself is not artificial, however the Implementation of the Language is Artificial, and this is what made the difference in terms of success.

Personally, I think that languages evolve allong with the people that speak it, and if Demotiki contains Turkish Influence, that is really not such a bad thing, it is but a Historical testimony of the evolution of the Greek People, and none should reject their own History as it would be like rejecting their own selves.

So instead, we should embrace such changes, it is a testimony of our evolution in time and as part of this world's history, it incites us to find out who we were, and defines who we are today.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

For some odd reason the title says
"Ancient Geek: The Language"

In the thread at the top of the first post it says the right thing though...

Anyhow, Greek is an awsome language/culture.

I had a great translator, let me check my favorites for it...

Yep, here we go...Some cool translator!

Maybe you've got help already, but more good sites couldn't hurt!