Any mods with correct sized units?

**Afro Thunder** · 09-22-2005, 01:08

I think if you had real-sized units, most people's computers would blow up.

**Kraxis** · 09-22-2005, 01:57

I believe the enginge can't go past 255 men in a unit.

You forget the upsized 1st cohort. So the engine would have to be able to go even further... I think you have to be patient and wait another few years.

**Oaty** · 09-22-2005, 09:01

Six centuries would be 6 units of 80 men totalling 480 men. So actually it's quite easy to make a cohort. Take 6 units(on large size) and the group them together, march em together fight em to together and if need be you can split the cohort up to handle multiple threats.

Did the cohort historically fight in 1 big group or 6 different groups but within a very close proximity to each other.

**rebelscum** · 09-22-2005, 16:05

Oaty I suppose you are right, you have to use your imagination

At the front the hastati and principes each formed a maniple of about 60 men, with 20 leves attached to each maniple of hastati.
So the normal unit sizes are about right.
leves are lightly armed 'velite' types but with spear. (So where are they in the game?)

At the back the triarii rorarii and accensi were organized into a group of three maniples, about 180 men, called an ordo.
As the historian Livy quotes the main fighting force, the principes and the hastati, at a strength of fifteen maniples then the following size could be assumed for a legion:
15 groups of leves (attached to the hastati) 300
15 hastati maniples 900
15 principes maniples 900
45 maniples (15 ordi) triarii, rorarii, accensi 2700
Total fighting force (without horsemen) 4800

What I'm saying is that you can't form a legion with the current unit sizes.

**CBR** · 09-22-2005, 16:24

Hm thats a very early legion. The units in RTW are for the "Polybian" and Marian type of Legions.

Most likely they fought with a small gap in between the units so they wouldnt get totally mixed up and disordered... a few meters perhaps.

If your 20 units are to represent several legions you will also run into problems with number of men per unit anyway. Best way is just to look at it in an abstract way and think of each as 5-10 men or something like that.

The individual Maniples were not that independent anyway. One example might be how the companies worked in battalions/regiments in musket warfare. IMO it would have been the same for the Romans.

CBR

**Kraxis** · 09-22-2005, 17:01

Besides the Rorarii and Accensi, a controversial part of the legion, were stationed to the rear and by all accounts were never comitted to battle (and their equipment was at best lousy). That is where the controvercy comes in. It is believed that they were merely attendants and even people outside the levy. Livy was writing long after the Polybian legion was gone, and thus he didn't have any proper info on it. So naturally the man took everything he could find and jumbled it in, even if the people weren't part of it.

In general it is better not to include them, as they merely make it harder to understand. Obviously they were later removed from the legion (though the legion still retained some attendants... hmmm, makes you wonder huh).

**lars573** · 09-22-2005, 17:51

Originally Posted by rebelscum

What I'm saying is that you can't form a legion with the current unit sizes.

And your not supposed to (not really). The units in RTW are abstracted representations of a legionary maniple or cohort. For the Marian (early legionary cohorts) and Augustine (legionary) cohorts they are shown at 1/3 (on huge) and 1/6 (on large) size. The Polybian legion is trickier as on huge the Maniples are proper sized (more or less) but an army can't field the proper amount of them. Now if you used multiple armies you could get an almost accurate sized legion. It would take about 2 or 3 armies to get a accurately sized Polybian legion. Using a rule of as close to 1200 as possible with out going over you'd need 7 units each of Velites, Hastati, and Princepes. Plus 5 Triarii and 2 equites

On the Rorarii and Accensi they were folded into Velites years before even the first Punic war started. They were definatly part of the Camillan system. This is the Roman amry where Princepes and Triarii were still a phalanx. But they were armed with javelins and a large shield and no armour.

To get an accurately sized Marian or Augustine legion you'd need 27 early/regular legionary cohorts plus 4 first cohorts, 2 units of roman cavalry plus what ever auxilia units you want, that's for huge unit sizes for large multiply by 2.

**rebelscum** · 09-22-2005, 22:22

You guys obviously know your stuff, however if the game starts pre 256 BC that would be early legions pre Polybian and Livys legion description would be correct.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 09-22-2005, 22:55

The Maniples of the Polyibian Legion are sized like this:

Legion: 4,200 men.

Maniple of Hastatii/Principes: 160 men

Maniple of Triarii: 60 men

Forty Velites were attached to each maniple

Each Cohort is composed of one maniple of each, divided into two centuries. Ten Cohorts make up the Legion.

Added to which there were 320 organic cavalry, divided into 10 tumae of 32 men.

The problem is that this isn't until the 2nd Century BC.

So the the Legion at the start of the game should be the Camillian Legion, with all five property classes, I would say the Rorarii and Accensi were probably last ditch reserves. The last class Accensi litterally means reserves.

If you want to get really pedantic then you should also take into account the fact the Gladius hasn't been invented at the start of the game, nor the helemts the Legionaries wear, and the shield of the skirmishers should be three feet in diamater.

Since the game is clearly screwed regarding accuracy I wouldn't worry about the unit sizes.