German Tanks in WW2 - the wrong conception

[Kagemusha]

Slipping a bit off topic, away from WW2, but indulge me: Nowadays, it seems as if the pendulum has swung back. The Abrams and Challengers in the Iraq War seemed impervious to infantry, despite very close range encounters. I think there was a story of one Challenger being hit by 60+ RPGs. Is that just because the Iraqis were badly equipped? Or do even well equipped modern infantry lack the means to threaten todays best tanks?

I think Iraqis RPGs were pretty outdated like their tanks too.But it is very hard to destroy a modern battle tank from in front side or back with RPGs.But APC is not a problem.In Finish army we used French Apilas 112mm heavy RPGs,it can penetrate 600mm of steel,so it can destroy most tanks when hitted in right place.The problem with modern battle tanks is that they have reactive armor(explosive charges that detonate when hitted by RPG and deflect the hit)or composite armor(layers of different materials that absorb the hit)or both.We were taught to shoot a modern battle tank at the tracks to stop it and then it can be detonated. or from multiple directions between the tower and the body of the tank.Ofcourse todays infantrys best weapon against battle tanks are antitank missiles.We were introduced the EuroSpike missile system that operates on fire and forget method.Once you lock the target and fire it.It flyes towards the tank and seconds after the hit it swings up and hit´s the tank on the top where its most vulnerable.I think that your original question remains open,because infantry with modern weapons really havent fought against modern battle tanks,and hopefully it wont happen anytime soon.

[Kraxis]

Yeah I saw that footage of an M1A1/2 knocked out by the Iraqis. It was far from destroyed. It was merely burning a little down in the low chassis and had no smoke billowing from it.
It had been knocked out obviously, but I think it wouldn't take long before it was operational again.

To truly kill a modern MBT with an outdated RPG seems to be near impossible, or depend a whole lot on luck. Right now I think one would haev to settle on 'just' knocking it out.

I just find it interesting that since the insurgetns seems to have lots of RPGs that we don't hear of "American tank knocked out" in the media, since a general jounalist or corrospondent knows no difference between an MBT or IFV.
I know the Bradley is rather thinly skinned, so obviously it must have effective support elements (reactive armour).

[Kagemusha]

Yeah I saw that footage of an M1A1/2 knocked out by the Iraqis. It was far from destroyed. It was merely burning a little down in the low chassis and had no smoke billowing from it.
It had been knocked out obviously, but I think it wouldn't take long before it was operational again.

To truly kill a modern MBT with an outdated RPG seems to be near impossible, or depend a whole lot on luck. Right now I think one would haev to settle on 'just' knocking it out.

I just find it interesting that since the insurgetns seems to have lots of RPGs that we don't hear of "American tank knocked out" in the media, since a general jounalist or corrospondent knows no difference between an MBT or IFV.
I know the Bradley is rather thinly skinned, so obviously it must have effective support elements (reactive armour).

I thought Bradleys havent been used in the cities that much at all because of its vulnerability.When i looked TV material of attack on Fallujah i saw good old Abrams supporting infantry all the time.It is intresting because i thought the M1A2 didnt even have HE rounds but only APCR and HEAT.But i saw with my own eyes from the TV screen Abrams shooting at a house,with its main gun.

[Kraxis]

I thought Bradleys havent been used in the cities that much at all because of its vulnerability.When i looked TV material of attack on Fallujah i saw good old Abrams supporting infantry all the time.It is intresting because i thought the M1A2 didnt even have HE rounds but only APCR and HEAT.But i saw with my own eyes from the TV screen Abrams shooting at a house,with its main gun.

I haev heard that it does have 'special' rounds of HESH (High Explosive *something* *something*) and HEP (High Explosive Plastic), but they are in general not used as the tank is supposed to fight other tanks, or use its MGs on softer targets. Perhaps there has been shipped a good number of those round to Iraq? But they are not part of the usual loadout of 20 Sabot and 20 HEAT.

Anyway, when I was winding down over at .com, a very nice guy went to Iraq (army logistics officer). He told that they had a bad practice of running through the local town with their Humvees and Bradleys to get some insurgets to shoot at them. He found the whole idea just a bit flawed.

[Kagemusha]

I haev heard that it does have 'special' rounds of HESH (High Explosive *something* *something*) and HEP (High Explosive Plastic), but they are in general not used as the tank is supposed to fight other tanks, or use its MGs on softer targets. Perhaps there has been shipped a good number of those round to Iraq? But they are not part of the usual loadout of 20 Sabot and 20 HEAT.

Thanks for the info Kraxis.I didnt now about those ammo at all.
BTW is there any chance that Mannsteins panzers could continue their roaming in Russia anytime soon?

[Kraxis]

Thanks for the info Kraxis.I didnt now about those ammo at all.
BTW is there any chance that Mannsteins panzers could continue their roaming in Russia anytime soon?

Hey, don't take my word on it. I have only heard about it, I haven't really searched for it, and I can't even remember where I heard it, so we have no reference for reliability.
So it would be very nice if someone who knows stepped in. Anyone in the armoured corps of the US army or German army (same gun, same ammo)?

Manstein won't roll for a few days yet. BI takes my time right now.

[Kagemusha]

Hey, don't take my word on it. I have only heard about it, I haven't really searched for it, and I can't even remember where I heard it, so we have no reference for reliability.
So it would be very nice if someone who knows stepped in. Anyone in the armoured corps of the US army or German army (same gun, same ammo)?

Manstein won't roll for a few days yet. BI takes my time right now.

So Abrams uses same ammo as Leopard 2? Because its the new main armour of our military.(Got them cheap from Germany). It has HE ammo i think,but im sure some armour expert will tell us.