German Tanks in WW2 - the wrong conception

**Kagemusha** · 10-01-2005, 03:49

dO YOU GUYS NOW WHAT COUNTRY IN eUROPE has most artillery.This is off topic but i just want to ask.

**Redleg** · 10-01-2005, 03:53

Originally Posted by kagemusha

dO YOU GUYS NOW WHAT COUNTRY IN eUROPE has most artillery.This is off topic but i just want to ask.

Russia still has the most Artillery in Europe I believe.

Edit: Up until 1990 the United States had the most Artillery in Europe other then the USSR that is.

**Kagemusha** · 10-01-2005, 04:03

Originally Posted by Redleg

Russia still has the most Artillery in Europe I believe.

Edit: Up until 1990 the United States had the most Artillery in Europe other then the USSR that is.

Oh sorry Redleg but i should rephase my sebtence- What EU country has most artillery?

**Del Arroyo** · 10-01-2005, 07:39

Originally Posted by kagemusha

Oh sorry Redleg but i should rephase my sebtence- What EU country has most artillery?

Probably the UK, they're the only ones with a serious, deployable military. But hey, who knows?

DA

**econ21** · 10-01-2005, 11:28

I'd guess Germany - it historically has had the largest army of the Western European countries, by virtue of being in the frontline of the Cold War and the size of its population & economy. The UK has a deployable military, but a smallish army - a lot of our defence spending goes on the navy.

I don't know how reliable this site is, but it seems to back up my hunch:

http://www.militaryfactory.com/count...?country_id=12

**DemonArchangel** · 10-01-2005, 14:50

You're all forgetting what HEAT rounds cause. It's spall folks. Although a HEAT round would probably cause a small hole, it would make the inside surface of the wall come apart just as readily as a HESH shell due to the spall effect. In fact, most HEAT rounds depend on that to kill armored vehicles and other hard surfaces.

And FYI, a way to increase the flexibility of HEAT shells is to wrap notched wire around the explosive within in order to greatly increase the amount of shrapnel produced.

**Kraxis** · 10-01-2005, 17:11

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

You're all forgetting what HEAT rounds cause. It's spall folks. Although a HEAT round would probably cause a small hole, it would make the inside surface of the wall come apart just as readily as a HESH shell due to the spall effect. In fact, most HEAT rounds depend on that to kill armored vehicles and other hard surfaces.

And FYI, a way to increase the flexibility of HEAT shells is to wrap notched wire around the explosive within in order to greatly increase the amount of shrapnel produced.

It is interesting that the thicker the armour the better both the sabot and the HEAT are at knocking the enemy tank out (to an extent of course).
If the armour was 20mm both would just pass right through with little damage, but 200mm and we will see a lot of debris getting knocked off from the armour on the inside when they penetrate it, just like wood really.

I do not doubt that a HEAT round can be used effectively, but it still lacks the concussive effects (unless you are quite close by) of the HE and HESH. Also, buildings often have rooms that are far more open than a tankturret, meaning the spall and debris knocked off will be flying in a nice shallow cone inwards of the room. In a tank that isn't too bad as it would be knocked back from the far wall, creating a wide zone of destruction. In a house the wall might be too far away for a proper coverage, besides most soldies hunker down near the outer wall and not in the rear. Thus the initial spread would not cover enough space. Neither would the HE or HESH or any other similar round, but their concussive effects would simply knock the life out of every man in the building, at least knock them down. Also, the latter types of ammo are more likely to actually destroy the building.
Lastly the HEAT is contact, the others can be set to delayed action, meaning they can pass through the wall, then explode on the inside. That would be a nasty situation for the poor sods in the building.

So what I'm tryingto say is that the HEAT can do the job, but it is expensive and not very costeffective. I still say I would remote control the .50 cal.

**itchrelief** · 10-08-2005, 02:36

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

You're all forgetting what HEAT rounds cause. It's spall folks. Although a HEAT round would probably cause a small hole, it would make the inside surface of the wall come apart just as readily as a HESH shell due to the spall effect.

The spall caused by a similarly sized HESH round on a nonspaced armor is MUCH greater than a HEAT round, as spalling is the whole modus operandi of HESH....