German Tanks in WW2 - the wrong conception

**Del Arroyo** · 10-01-2005, 07:39

Originally Posted by kagemusha

Oh sorry Redleg but i should rephase my sebtence- What EU country has most artillery?

Probably the UK, they're the only ones with a serious, deployable military. But hey, who knows?

DA

**econ21** · 10-01-2005, 11:28

I'd guess Germany - it historically has had the largest army of the Western European countries, by virtue of being in the frontline of the Cold War and the size of its population & economy. The UK has a deployable military, but a smallish army - a lot of our defence spending goes on the navy.

I don't know how reliable this site is, but it seems to back up my hunch:

http://www.militaryfactory.com/count...?country_id=12

**DemonArchangel** · 10-01-2005, 14:50

You're all forgetting what HEAT rounds cause. It's spall folks. Although a HEAT round would probably cause a small hole, it would make the inside surface of the wall come apart just as readily as a HESH shell due to the spall effect. In fact, most HEAT rounds depend on that to kill armored vehicles and other hard surfaces.

And FYI, a way to increase the flexibility of HEAT shells is to wrap notched wire around the explosive within in order to greatly increase the amount of shrapnel produced.

**Kraxis** · 10-01-2005, 17:11

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

You're all forgetting what HEAT rounds cause. It's spall folks. Although a HEAT round would probably cause a small hole, it would make the inside surface of the wall come apart just as readily as a HESH shell due to the spall effect. In fact, most HEAT rounds depend on that to kill armored vehicles and other hard surfaces.

And FYI, a way to increase the flexibility of HEAT shells is to wrap notched wire around the explosive within in order to greatly increase the amount of shrapnel produced.

It is interesting that the thicker the armour the better both the sabot and the HEAT are at knocking the enemy tank out (to an extent of course).
If the armour was 20mm both would just pass right through with little damage, but 200mm and we will see a lot of debris getting knocked off from the armour on the inside when they penetrate it, just like wood really.

I do not doubt that a HEAT round can be used effectively, but it still lacks the concussive effects (unless you are quite close by) of the HE and HESH. Also, buildings often have rooms that are far more open than a tankturret, meaning the spall and debris knocked off will be flying in a nice shallow cone inwards of the room. In a tank that isn't too bad as it would be knocked back from the far wall, creating a wide zone of destruction. In a house the wall might be too far away for a proper coverage, besides most soldies hunker down near the outer wall and not in the rear. Thus the initial spread would not cover enough space. Neither would the HE or HESH or any other similar round, but their concussive effects would simply knock the life out of every man in the building, at least knock them down. Also, the latter types of ammo are more likely to actually destroy the building.
Lastly the HEAT is contact, the others can be set to delayed action, meaning they can pass through the wall, then explode on the inside. That would be a nasty situation for the poor sods in the building.

So what I'm tryingto say is that the HEAT can do the job, but it is expensive and not very costeffective. I still say I would remote control the .50 cal.

**DemonArchangel** · 10-01-2005, 17:29

HESH? Delayed action? Er... no.

Anyway, most HEAT shells these days have more high explosive than they previously did, making them much more effective against infantry, especially since they can be detonated with a proximity fuse (allowing them to pass into rooms and soft targets) before blowing up.

About cost effectiveness, it's REALLY cost effective to manufacture HE, HESH, HEAT and KE shells all at the same time. And also, given the small number of rounds that tanks store, would you really want to stock 4-5 kinds of specialist rounds instead of 2 relatively general purpose rounds?

**Uesugi Kenshin** · 10-01-2005, 19:46

Well seeing as SABOT rounds are extremely specialized.... Yeah I would want to carry them, as to 4-5 types of ammo, not really.

Bet the .50 cal or an infantry launched RPG (LAWS or something similar) would do the job though.

**Franconicus** · 10-07-2005, 09:36

I have a source that a Tiger (I) tank took 30.000 manhours to build, costed 250,000 Reichsmark. This is the same that the US needed to build a B29.
Does anybody has similar figures of other WW2 tanks?

**Kraxis** · 10-07-2005, 12:51

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

HESH? Delayed action? Er... no.

Anyway, most HEAT shells these days have more high explosive than they previously did, making them much more effective against infantry, especially since they can be detonated with a proximity fuse (allowing them to pass into rooms and soft targets) before blowing up.

About cost effectiveness, it's REALLY cost effective to manufacture HE, HESH, HEAT and KE shells all at the same time. And also, given the small number of rounds that tanks store, would you really want to stock 4-5 kinds of specialist rounds instead of 2 relatively general purpose rounds?

Since the entire point of the HESH/HEP is to splatter out on the concrete walls of a bunker or armour of a tank I would definately say it is already delayed. And walls in normal buldings aren't too thick, allowing the HESH to beat through first.

Didn't know HEAT rounds could be delayed. That of course will help it a whole lot. But if it can be delayed (which I can't believe would be good against armour) why can't HESH?

About mixing rounds... Well given that there is just about no enemy armour or reinforced positions to fight I find that the Sabot is pretty much useless. Would I rather carry a HEAT/HESH combination in Iraq? You bet! The Sabot could be discarded all the way home to the stores.

**Big King Sanctaphrax** · 10-07-2005, 21:42

Originally Posted by Kraxis

Since the entire point of the HESH/HEP is to splatter out on the concrete walls of a bunker or armour of a tank I would definately say it is already delayed. And walls in normal buldings aren't too thick, allowing the HESH to beat through first.

Didn't know HEAT rounds could be delayed. That of course will help it a whole lot. But if it can be delayed (which I can't believe would be good against armour) why can't HESH?

Well, I would imagine the HESH isn't any use with a delayed fuse as it's destructive effects are gained through the plastic explosive inside spreading out over the surface it impacts. If you delay the charge, which is generally used to allow rounds to penetrate buildings and detonate on the inside, it's not going to be able to spread out properly, and, as it's not a high KE round, I'm not certain it would get through the armor/wall anyway.

Does anyone use HESH anymore, anyway? I thought it was all discarding sabot KE and HEAT rounds for anti-tank stuff, and HE for anti-infantry. HESH just isn't as effective against armor as the KE and heat rounds-although it is good against bunkers.

**itchrelief** · 10-08-2005, 02:36

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

You're all forgetting what HEAT rounds cause. It's spall folks. Although a HEAT round would probably cause a small hole, it would make the inside surface of the wall come apart just as readily as a HESH shell due to the spall effect.

The spall caused by a similarly sized HESH round on a nonspaced armor is MUCH greater than a HEAT round, as spalling is the whole modus operandi of HESH....

**Franconicus** · 10-24-2005, 12:43

We forgot one important thing when we did the cost comparison of German tanks vs. Sherman or T34. That is the cost and the resources spend for the development of the systems.

There are lot systems that are very complex and then only built in a very small number, like the Ferdinand "Elefant".

Similar things at the Luftwaffe were you do not only have the Me262 as an advanced fighter but also planes like the Komet or the Volksjäger.

These 'high technology' programs seem to me like a waste of capacities. This may be one reason why some important new systems (like the Me262) came only in small numbers and too late.