A question

[khelvan]

Ok, I have a question for you, and this is being posed on my own behalf, and no one else's (i.e. not officially an EB post :). Assume, if you will, that we've solved the problems that have plagued us for a very long time regarding building complexes. Now, assume we've put our core systems in place and they work. However, the system would be running slow and one, or a handful of, known CTD bugs exist, but can't be pinned down, though if you've saved the game and reload it, the CTD doesn't happen again. In addition, the core systems may be in place but aren't tested and balanced the way we would like them to be.

So, in a hypothetical situation like this, would you prefer we work on it three or four weeks and clean up the mod, or release it that much sooner as a true beta test, bugs and rough patches included?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

I would rather wait, its gonna take a long time for me to download this mod given its size, and when i finally get it i want it to work ok, You guys have done a lot of work on this mod, if you release it early with some bugs then they would overshadow the rest of the mod.
One of the good things about the modding community is the fact that their are no deadlines and work isn't rushed, I've waited this long, im happy to wait a bit longer.

[Dooz]

We've waited this long, another few weeks is a welcomed amount of time to wait if the realease is going to be fully playable right from the start.

[GoreBag]

Well, most betas do have patches that come through a little later, and it's not the finished version, after all. We're all expecting a few rough edges, especially after having sculpted the game from the unattractive block of granite that RTW is (or has become in comparison). I'd like to give the open beta a go if everything is in place. The last few issues, I'm confident, will be fixed with patches not long after the release.

[Divinus Arma]

Khelvan, the perspective I see it is: What will help you and EB more?

You may find some fans surprising useful. An open beta, with very clear labeling to reduce expectations, will deter the more casual of the fans who are willing to wait.

On the other hand, you may find others who are willing to work and play in order to bring the final product around that much sooner.

The risks are that EB will open and develop an unfair reputation. Namely, that EB is a bug-filled and unplayable Mod.



So, in summary:
Benefits.
(1) More dedicated playtesters who may be able to speed up the process.
(2) No risk of losing the real "core" EB fans.

Risks:
(1) Development of an unfair reputation.
(2) Complaints? (or is this good, i.e. bugfinding?)
(3) Possible disillusionment of casual EB fans who may be let down.

If you do not believe that a release at this time will contribute towards development, then wait.


I have completely wiped my game computer hard drive of everything just for EB. I will install a clean RTW and EB over it. I have a second computer immediatley adjacent with MS word ready for documentation. I have an addictive personality though. I consider this "fun". If my playtesting won't help you, then I would rather wait.

Thanks for your candid solicitation. You are a gentleman.

[Forgus]

While I can't wait to see EB, I personally think that if we could wait this long a few weeks or even a month will not make any difference. I go sailing for a week anyway

[Dooz]

Khelvan, the perspective I see it is: What will help you and EB more?

You may find some fans surprising useful. An open beta, with very clear labeling to reduce expectations, will deter the more casual of the fans who are willing to wait.

On the other hand, you may find others who are willing to work and play in order to bring the final product around that much sooner.

The risks are that EB will open and develop an unfair reputation. Namely, that EB is a bug-filled and unplayable Mod.



So, in summary:
Benefits.
(1) More dedicated playtesters who may be able to speed up the process.
(2) No risk of losing the real "core" EB fans.

Risks:
(1) Development of an unfair reputation.
(2) Complaints? (or is this good, i.e. bugfinding?)
(3) Possible disillusionment of casual EB fans who may be let down.

If you do not believe that a release at this time will contribute towards development, then wait.


I have completely wiped my game computer hard drive of everything just for EB. I will install a clean RTW and EB over it. I have a second computer immediatley adjacent with MS word ready for documentation. I have an addictive personality though. I consider this "fun". If my playtesting won't help you, then I would rather wait.

Thanks for your candid solicitation. You are a gentleman.

That makes more sense than anything I've read in recent memory. That ought to cover all the bases, the rest is up to EB to decide.

[Productivity]

I would do a semi-open release (yes I know it iwll get leaked, but put massive disclaimers everywhere), ie. you have to go through someone to get the beta. That way you'll get access to a huge knowledge base, but only those who are serious will go for it.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

We've waited so long already, what's another three weeks?

Wait.

[Bartix]

What ever is best for you
I will download when available.
I will forgive buggies.
I will try to help if possible (not too likely )
I will participate in forum to try constructiveness and suggestion.

And to whole team in advance i give

[jerby]

Khelvan,
it's very very kidn of you to let us hear the news.
but form the things i've read: you make up your mind. If teh release is a BIG deal, and a lot of work, then don't.

if releases go easy, then there might be 1/2/3 beta's..

EB cares very much about their fans, we know that. now it's time for you to start thinking about yourselves..

[Germaan]

I for me think it will be great to release the beta even with some bugs and slow working. Everyone can deside for himself if he will download it or wait for a more final version. Then maybee people like me can make a small contribution to the game by playing the beta and let you and the other EB teammembers now in the forums what whe run up to. There can be no discussion from the beta players about good ar bad because they have a chanche now to help you guys and they now there is still some work on it.

[Birka Viking]

I have waited this long..So I can wait a few weeks more...*But do that feels best for you in the EB team*You have my suport anyway*

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

It would be a shame after all this work and waiting to release an unpolished version of EB. After all it's not a "life or death" project, no one is going to need an early release to make a living from it.

[Spendios]

I am sure that a beta of EB with a few bugs will be a far more interesting and fun game than Vanilla. After all a beta is not supposed to be perfectly polished and you will have a lot of dedicated fans who will try to help you to solve the bugs.
Btw I have waited so long for it that I can wait for a few more weeks, whatever your decision is I thank all the the EB team for their work

[Ypoknons]

I want it. Now. But that's just me.

But speaking for the good of EB ... I think that many do not take the word "Beta" very seriously. Plenty I think, will the the "beta" as a "release", find it buggy, and put it down. I would say take a few weeks and iron them out; maybe make your closed beta team bigger.

[Meneldil]

I wouldn't mind if it was released right now, and patched later on. After all, it's a beta, and beta are expected to be buggy and not perfectly balanced. And I'm fairly sure it would still be way better than vanilla RTW.

[Inepticus]

Much better to wait and see the product that we know it is going to be in all its glory.

[-Abbey.keeper-]

isn't play testing what open betas are all about?
even Wes and BKB needed feedbacks from their fans to perfect their mods for MTW

cheers

[Big_John]

interesting that the majority of people responding on the org are saying wait, and it seems like the majority responding on twc are saying don't wait. anyway, i can't play it until october 1st anyway. so i would just say wait to see if you guys can sort out the issues, since, afaik, you're still adding content in addition to squishing bugs. but since you said the closed beta "failed" in some respect (over at the twc), you best bet is probably to go with an open beta.

maybe that will spoil the surprises for some people.. but we don't have to DL it if we don't want to.

[Revolting Friendship]

Well, RTW was basically unplayable when it first came out, even if it didn't crash all over the place. People who download an early beta should be aware of the situation. But then again, when I played the WoW US beta, there was so much whining about the state of the game and how people wouldn't buy it, I couldn't take it and stopped playing it for that reason alone. Most expected to get an enjoyable experience right there, not to help the devs to get the game straightened out. Immature people are truly in aboundance...

Otherwise I completely agree with Divinus Arma(excellent post dude), do what helps you the most.

[Wardo]

I'd say wait but if that would help get more beta-testers even if the leaking risk is moderate to high.

As soon as I got RTR6.0 I started a "World Conquest" Campaign with the Romans to find out later there was a bug that ruined the game as soon as any other faction captured 50 cities and that made me very sad as I couldn't play the game I had invested so much time and heart into anymore. By the way, I hope someone in EB has played ENOUGH to verify this sort of bug won't happen in EB and the fix for RTR6.0 bug was very simple anyway.

I like to "RPG" in my campaign games, I like to make full use of the trait systems to help develop personalities to my generals and change the way they act (tactics, General Unit positioning, etc..) on the battlefield, I won't use the same tactic or the same army composition everytime with every general (unless my role-playing demands that, ie. Marian Reforms ), so I put alot of energy in my campaign games, I day-dream alot while playing, I could write novels off it, and when a catastrophic bug put a halt to a game I've been working on for weeks, it plain and simply SUCKS!

But I've learned my lesson, as soon as EB is released I'll play ONLY short campaigns, with simple goals, quick to achieve, to avoid investing in a long-term campaign and then having to face an interruption because of a lethal bug or a necessary patch, the only sad thing about this is that I won't be seeing any Marian Legionaries or if they exist "immitation" Legionaries around. Oh well...

[Mongoose]

Wait

Another 3 weeks will be worth a finished mod

[khelvan]

In this -hypothetical- situation, we would only release the mod if we feel it is playable, with the core systems in place. The point would be to get the help necessary to track down non-reproducable bugs (that is, your campaign would be going quite well, it is 400 turns in, and all of a sudden during the AI turn you get a CTD. You load your game, hit end turn again, and it works just fine).

Don't think that in this hypothetical situation the mod would be completely without polish. Even in our real situation today our export_building.txt file is over 2.5MB and growing, we have tons and tons of new graphics, and we're in the process of removing all vanilla units from the game. It is a gradual process, and even with all of our help there are areas we could still use help with. Another reason for this hypothetical release would be to generate more support to get certain skill sets into the mod, such as someone who can work on 3D buildings for us.

Anyway, the closed beta failed, for more than one reason. Our beta release was leaked, and we shut it down. There is no point in having a "beta" any longer unless it is truly open. So we've always intended on releasing it without it being complete. The question is one of degrees, and I honestly can't tell you how long it might take to find such bugs in this hypothetical situation.

[Zero1]

I think you should release it as a beta like this if you feel it will help you find the bug/bugs.

[Big_John]

Anyway, the closed beta failed, for more than one reason. Our beta release was leaked, and we shut it down. There is no point in having a "beta" any longer unless it is truly open. So we've always intended on releasing it without it being complete. The question is one of degrees, and I honestly can't tell you how long it might take to find such bugs in this hypothetical situation.

in that case, just release it.

-edit- hypothetically speaking, of course..

[jerby]

Anyway, the closed beta failed, for more than one reason. Our beta release was leaked, and we shut it down. There is no point in having a "beta" any longer unless it is truly open. So we've always intended on releasing it without it being complete. The question is one of degrees, and I honestly can't tell you how long it might take to find such bugs in this hypothetical situation.

is this hypotheticall?

[Modestus]

I would have no problem waiting, whatever the EB team feels comfortable with is ok with me. On a point of principle there is a growing habit in the industry to release games with known bugs and while recognising that this is a mod I think the team have set a high standard for themselves and I’m sure most people will want them to continue on that road.

[khelvan]

No, we didn't hypothetically shut the closed beta down, we did, because of a leaked version.

[Revolting Friendship]

In that hypothetical case, go ahead with the open beta.