A question

[Reverend Joe]

Release the beta now- but with very clear and stern warnings about the CTD's- so that you can get as much information as possible about the CTD's. This will help to eliminate the bugs much faster. For my part, I will just save every turn, so it won't bother me if there are a few stray bugs, and I will try to remember to report any persistant bugs. Once you have the bugs worked out, release a second beta so that everyone can test the gameplay.

Also, release some kind of tracker for the game, so that technologically-challenged people can more easily send in the information on these bugs.



edit: another thing- I often find the real and true EB fans to be very supportive of the team's work, so I wouldn't worry about any whining. If it becomes necessary, however, I will just post a whiner's thread, to provide a lightning rod for all complaints. To be absolutely clear, though, I really don't think this will be necessary. You have our confidence and faith.

[Moros]

I would wait khelvan because the current Beta is quite buggy and I think it's better for the public to see a bit less buggy version. But I'm sure that wathever choice you make it will be the best. ~

[jerby]

No, we didn't hypothetically shut the closed beta down, we did, because of a leaked version.

so non-hypothetically...how close are we?



couldn't resist

[Divinus Arma]

With the new information from Khelvan, and the comments from fans here,

It seems you have a variety of fan support.

Hard core fans. These would be EB members if only they had skills to offer. They have a firm understanding of the effort on EBs part and have no illusions as to the technical obstacles that are inherently present.

Strong supporters. These are patient, but willing to make sacrifices in polish and understand bugs are part of the process.

Moderate fans. These fall into two types: "I want it now" and "wait for the polish". They want to play EB and are eagerly looking forward to the Mod. These are the ones who may be dissapointed with rough edges unless they are properly informed. This seems to be the bulk of the fan base.

Mild fans. They just want to play the mod and wonder why it has taken so long. These may be completely disillusioned by an open beta.

Others: These have not been following EB, and would not download it unless they heard it was worthwhile. They may ignore EB forever if they hear that it is buggy and unbalanced. They have no concept of a "beta" and hold modders on par with developers as to expectations. The basic consumer.


I think that the development of EB is more important than initial public opinion. This is because EB will release a "final". Those who initially were disapointed because they thought that "beta" meant "finished" will change their mind depending on how you market the final version.


Here is my humble recommendation to you.

Marketing Plan.

Stage 1. Release the open beta with disclaimers. Do not hype it or promote it. Just let it out. Do not open your .com and .net websites if they are ready. Word ALL initial language as an invitation. "EB invites you to help us in bug-killing and playtesting." All EB team language should support this image. Be moderately low key but not evasive or secretive. For example, the Org announcement set up by TosaInu should be with few graphics and worded as an invitiation with heavy disclaimers. Avoid and discourage "celebration" threads saying that EB is "out". Because, in reality, it is not. Encourage discussion on the under-construction nature of this release and openly communicate this when possible. Because you signatures are an information channel fro consumers, they should be uniform in offering disclaimers and warnings. Maybe a banner with EB as you have now and a crane & bulldozer on it. Uniformity in information is key.

Stage 2 Continue work on the project and coordinate playtesting. You will likely need a playtesting manager if you do not already have one. This is because all playtesters are "members" in a way and someone will need to consolidate the data and attempt to "guide" behavior. You will have two types of playtesters:
(1) casual playtesters who identify bugs and place them on a sticky thread. These may come in the forms of complaints. The key is the information and not how it is delivered. Plan for heavy duplication of data from multiple sources.
(2) Dedicated playtesters. These will take notes, log play entries, and basically "work" for you. You should plan for these by embracing them and giving them general instructions; a kind of loose goals outline. Consider making them members after they have been identified and have proven themselves.

Stage 3 Final release. Open your websites and ensure they are up and running. Ensure that product download is of a reasonable speed and vey reliable. Generate alliances and coordinate activities on all related support sites (TWC and Org) to direct further information to the new sites. All information dissemination channels, inquiry handling, and "customer service" should have the same integrated feel. All information should be part of the same shared vision. Stage 3 will completely kill any previously developed reputation because individuals will clearly see that the previous version was indeed a "beta".

What I have written here is a simple integrated marketing plan. If you follow these three stages then the risks to your reputation will be eliminated. This means that you have every reason to release the beta. You only stand to benefit from the volumes of data that will soon be supplied to you.


I hope this helps. I have an education with honors in Business Management. I finish my BA in six weeks and I expect to graduate summa cum laude with a 4.0 GPA at my University. Just one more class: Global Strategic Management. Yes, I do more than drink. I have offered my help in the past. I do so again. Please PM me if I can be of service to the project.

[khelvan]

No worries mate, I have a Master's in Business Administration with a focus on global economics and marketing, as well as various experience in the field, if we're listing credentials. I appreciate the advice but I think you're taking it a bit too seriously. The first "full" releases of other, popular mods, were chock full of bugs, but people still played them and the mods are still popular.

I'm not worried about the reputation in the least. No one is paying for the mod, and we aren't generating revenue in any way. We haven't even asked for or provided a method for sending donations.

My only concern is what is best for the development of the mod, not its reputation. When it comes to the fans, I just wanted to know what people would rather see. There are some that are in the "don't release it with bugs at all" camp, but that isn't realistic, as we are planning on releasing an open beta. Again, it is a matter of degree.

[Ianofsmeg16]

I'm thinking wait, why?

cos if you release a buggy beta, then people woh havn't seen this thread (i.e people who havn't put in there say in weather or not you want to realease it now) will inevitably complain that the beta is buggy...

just a smeg's input...

[Reverend Joe]

cos if you release a buggy beta, then people woh havn't seen this thread (i.e people who havn't put in there say in weather or not you want to realease it now) will inevitably complain that the beta is buggy...

This is a problem. The solution: warn them in the release thread. And don't just warn them: put the warning above the download, in large bold letters,

Like so.
And the warning goes here, in smaller letters, but still emphasized.
That way, any complaints will be de-legitimized.

Go ahead and release it- it's okay.

Have one of Dutch Guy's balloons.

[Divinus Arma]

No worries mate, I have a Master's in Business Administration with a focus on global economics and marketing, as well as various experience in the field, if we're listing credentials.

Great! How was I to know? I only sought to back up my recommendations with the little bit of credibility that I have. As opposed to advice from a drunk.

I appreciate the advice but I think you're taking it a bit too seriously. The first "full" releases of other, popular mods, were chock full of bugs, but people still played them and the mods are still popular.

I'm not worried about the reputation in the least.

I did not think I was being that serious. That only took a few minutes to write. It was just a recommendation if you cared about image. If you did not care about reputation, why even ask the fans their opinion? It seems clear to me that an open beta will best help the mod.

My only concern is what is best for the development of the mod, not its reputation. When it comes to the fans, I just wanted to know what people would rather see.

Forgive me if I do not understand, but these two statements appear to contradict each other. I am certainly not trying to argue, I just don't understand your specific intent.

If you want to expedite the development of the mod, then it seems an open beta is the best option. Why? Simply because you will have the benefit of playtesters. As for the people who want a more polished version:
[quote=Khelvan]I'm not worried about the reputation in the least[/Khelvan]

I know the team is well qualified with historians and tech professionals. I am glad to see it is also well-led. I read your quals as a proj manager when you guys first started with the mod. In no way did I intend to suggest that there was a lack of leadership ability.

[Big_John]

what's the situation with the EB website(s)? is that something that will be coordinated with the beta release? also, after releasing an open beta, will this be the primary place to discuss things, or will there be "beta" forums somewhere else?

[Mr Jones]

i agree with meatwad. release it with a huge warning: beta sign on it, preferrably several. it should lead to a more polished product sooner. after all, the point of a beta is that it is NOT polished, and needs polishing. so all those people saying wait until it is polished, i am not trying to bash on you or anything and i respect your opinion, but beta's r not sposed to be polished so i say release it if your closed beta failed.

P.S i am not asking for the release just because i want to play it soon. in fact i will probly wait for the actual "release" of the mod because i hate downloading big files and probly won't be able to help much with the open beta testing.

[Warlord 11]

I personal would like to play it now. I understand it will be buggy and agree there should be a large warning, though. This mod will probably be better than vanilla if I have to restart RTW every turn.

[Reverend Joe]

Further reassurance: the latest version of RTR is very obviously incomplete, particularly with the building trees (i.e. all barracks are constructible in the smallest settlement, all temples give the same bonuses, etc.) However, it is still enjoyable, because it is still better than vanilla RTW. So you don't have to hold back anymore; you can go ahead and release the Beta.

[khelvan]

Why is soliciting opinions translated as worrying about the mod's reputation? I was curious about what people wanted. None of us can control the reaction to the mod, and no matter what we do, people aren't going to like it. We've tried to set expectations properly, but some people are going to assume different things that we just can't live up to.

These same people are likely those who wouldn't understand or care what a "beta" is, or that we would announce it to be released with bugs so that the public can help us test. They are the ones who will be outspoken and be upset, no matter what we do.

However, the fans who have posted here and waited here for so long have opinions that matter to us, and that is why I asked for these opinions. It doesn't have anything to do with reputation, but with what our fans would like to see. We can't control our reputation, but we can control other things, such as the timing of our release, and the degree to which it is polished.

I can tell you that internally there are rumblings that we shouldn't release until all bugs are squashed, and everything is completely polished. That would mean it isn't an open beta, but a full release.

I promised to you long ago that there would be an Open Beta. This open beta is what you have been waiting for, for so long. You'll either get an open beta with me as the head PR guy and the integrator, or you will get a full release with someone else in that role, because I will not break my word to you.

I have always said that the mod will be released as soon as it is playable, and I have read no overwhelming opinion that leads me to believe that there is any reason to go against this promise. I intend to keep it.

[tk-421]

I also agree with meatwad. Release now but make sure that everyone that downloads it nows that it is an unpolished version.

Edit: Hypothetically speaking, of course.

[khelvan]

Keep in mind we can't release it now. This truly was discussing a hypothetical situation. Though one not out of the realm of possibility, it doesn't describe today's reality. Tomorrow? Who can say.

[-Abbey.keeper-]

"I promised to you long ago that there would be an Open Beta. This open beta is what you have been waiting for, for so long. You'll either get an open beta with me as the head PR guy and the integrator, or you will get a full release with someone else in that role, because I will not break my word to you."

nuff' said.
thank you Khelvan.

cheers

[Divinus Arma]

Okay, I see. As I said Initially: Thank you for the candid solicitation. You are a gentleman and I appreciate your openness and respect for your fans.

I look forward to whatever decision is made.

[saulot333]

Thanks Khelvan for your kindness and consideration. I'm in favor of an open beta as soon as possible but not earlier. Let's hope that hypothetical situation becomes reality soon...keep up the good work

[Steppe Merc]

I promised to you long ago that there would be an Open Beta. This open beta is what you have been waiting for, for so long. You'll either get an open beta with me as the head PR guy and the integrator, or you will get a full release with someone else in that role, because I will not break my word to you.

I have always said that the mod will be released as soon as it is playable, and I have read no overwhelming opinion that leads me to believe that there is any reason to go against this promise. I intend to keep it.

And we love Khelvan, so we'd never get rid of him.

[Ianofsmeg16]

nomination for "emotional Speech"?....

I promised to you long ago that there would be an Open Beta. This open beta is what you have been waiting for, for so long. You'll either get an open beta with me as the head PR guy and the integrator, or you will get a full release with someone else in that role, because I will not break my word to you.

[jerby]

sounds a bit 'george bus'h-like' ...

[Reverend Joe]

Wait... you mean... Khelvan...

[edyzmedieval]

And we love Khelvan, so we'd never get rid of him.

Everybody loves Khelvan.

[Ianofsmeg16]

Everybody loves Khelvan.

*Breaks into tune*
Oh We ALL LOVE KHELVAN...
All over this land
*Breaks out of tune*

[Dunhill]

This level of the TW community is a bit more "mature" and I think we are happy to wait a little longer for a product that has less bugs.

I'd suggest the team continue closed testing, open up the website, then once the website is settled and the game is 95% playable, release.

It's fine to have some bugs, and we'll be able to help you after release. However, you don't want a CTD buglist that runs for pages.

Good luck with whatever decision you make, and keep up the good work.

Cheers,

[Ludens]

I second Divinus Arma. You determine what is best. I can wait.

[O_Stratigos]

I also agree with this. Whatever the EB teams desides to do, for whatever reasons.

"In EB we trust"

O_Stratigos

[Modestus]

Hey it now sounds to me that’s there is an internal debate going on within EB and somehow you feel compromised, don’t worry about it we are not stupid people, I don’t mind EB being delayed you have stated you promise a beta mod, fare enough I for one do not want you to commit a noble deed on principle, noble deeds generally get no one anywhere and certainly those based on principle! It is only a game, I would much prefer that a decision was made internally by EB and not open to debate but since you have introduced a note of division and if what you imagine as a possible hypotically problem arises then I would suggest you have no alternative but to go along with the team.

But having reappraised what you initially said and recognising that nothing fundamental is a problem “Let loose the dogs of war”

Edit:Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;

[Geoffrey S]

I'd say release a beta when you (as mod team, that is) figure it's worth it; it's really your call, and you know the situation with the mod the best. As for what I'd like, sure I'd love to play the beta as soon as possible, but not at the cost of large bugs. Still, at the least you can make it very clear that the release is bugged, allowing users to decide for themselves if they want to wait or not.

[Ergion]

Still, at the least you can make it very clear that the release is bugged, allowing users to decide for themselves if they want to wait or not.