Iraq Issues Arrest Warrant for UK Troops

[Ice]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/....ap/index.html

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- An Iraqi judge said on Saturday he had renewed arrest warrants for two British soldiers who were rescued from jail early this week by troops using armor to crash through the prison walls.

The British government said the warrants are not legally binding, as the soldiers are subject to UK law.

This week's violence in Basra infuriated local Iraqi police and government officials, and tensions remained high in the city on Saturday.

Rockets were fired at two buildings housing British officials, police said. Most of them missed their mark, and no British officials were hurt. However, two of the rockets hit nearby homes and wounded an Iraqi civilian, police said.

The two British soldiers were arrested by Iraqi authorities on Monday after allegedly shooting two Iraqi policemen who tried to detain them. One of the policemen reportedly was killed.

The two British soldiers, operating undercover, were subsequently taken into custody.

A British armored patrol then surrounded the jail where the two were held, prompting a riot in the Basra, Iraq's second largest city and the southern hub of the country's oil industry.

Angry residents attacked the British armor with Molotov cocktails and pelted soldiers with stones as they jumped from the burning vehicles.

Later Monday, British armored vehicles crashed through the prison walls in an operation to rescue the two soldiers. They were subsequently found in a nearby house in the custody of militiamen, Britain said.

Basra authorities said the operation violated Iraqi sovereignty, and the governor ordered all government employees to stop cooperating with the British, who have 8,500 troops in the Shiite Muslim-dominated region.

Judge Raghib al-Mudhafar, chief of the Basra Anti-Terrorism Court, said Saturday that he reissued homicide arrest warrants for the two soldiers on Thursday.

But the British government said they are not legally binding on the British soldiers.

"There is no legal basis for the issue of this arrest warrant. Rather, we have a legal obligation to investigate the allegations ourselves. That is being done as we speak," a spokesman at the British defense ministry said in London on Saturday.

"We will continue to work with the Iraqis on the inquiry which the Iraqi government has begun" into the clash, he said in an interview.

In Basra early Saturday morning, several rockets were fired at the British and American consulates in the city, but both fell in a nearby field, hurting no one, said police Capt. Mushtaq Khazim.

Also, three rockets were fired at the Shat al-Arab hotel, the headquarters of the British army in Basra, he said. One rocket hit the building, without causing casualties. The two others hit nearby private homes, wounding an Iraqi civilian, Khazim said.

Oh God. When will this end.

[Duke Malcolm]

It will escalate, and violence against Her Majesty's Armed Forces will increase, and hence more troops will be deployed, and the area will be under the watchful eye of the British Army...

[BDC]

I'm just waiting for the first proper British vs Iraqi militia skirmish.

Can wave bubye to any chance of a stable Iraq ever then.

[Duke Malcolm]

Ah, a nice skirmish... something to go down in history... 3rd Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland (A disadvantage of the future regiments is that people have no idea what this unit is, its history, and where it recruits from, except in Scotland) versus 1000 Iraqi militiamen...

[scooter_the_shooter]

I hope america does the same thing if they try to take our guys prisoner!

[discovery1]

I hope america does the same thing if they try to take our guys prisoner!

No. If any of our spied should be so clumsy as to be caught, leave them be. We don't need them.

And good job Brits. I wonder where this will lead....

[Tribesman]

And good job Brits. I wonder where this will lead....
Well so far it has led to...... the Governor of the region withdrawing co-operation with British forces , an increase in hostility to British presensce by the locals , yet another wonderful overpriced re-construction project turning into a pile of rubble , further alienaton and resentment among the Iraqi security forces and judiciary , more calls in Britain to withdraw the troops , embarrassing questions being asked about Special regiment (its role , its methods and its accountability) , a lovely propoganda oppertunity for the terrorists .
Yes , Good Job Brits indeed
Lets have lots more of the same . Victory is only around the corner

[scooter_the_shooter]

I don't want any american soldiers to be stuck in an iraqi prison.

[Tribesman]

I don't want any american soldiers to be stuck in an iraqi prison.
Well don't send them to Iraq then

[Steppe Merc]

Exactly. Last I looked, if you go somewhere, you are subject to those laws.

[Meneldil]

Well, there are many exceptions to that, such as people working for another State, or for an international organisation. Sadly, this might applies to soldiers aswell.
Someone might have more infos about that. I studied that status of diplomat and UN workers last years, but nothing about people working for the army of another country.

[Tribesman]

Well, there are many exceptions to that,
True , and one of the exceptions is the clause in the interim constitution which call the the return of any detained coilition soldiers to their own forces .
But I doubt the interim constitution would stand up to much legally if it is challenged . Considering that many of the "Iraqi" framers of that document are now facing criminal charges arrising from their term of "appointment" , as are some of their judicial team .

[Divinus Arma]

If we start fighting a government that WE instituted, Iraq will compltely go to crap.

We will lose all legtimicay and have to leave immediatley.

Then Iraq will suffer a horrible civil war. The Government will totally collapse and their will be no law, just regional strongmen.

The Kurds will declare independence in the North, drawing Turkey in to brutally squash it before Turkish Kurds attempt to secede.

The Sunnis will attempt to reassert their former authority by waging a genocidal war against the Shiites. Iran, mostly shiite, will get involved because they no longer have a reason not to. They still have scars from the Iraq/Iran war and will happily destroy a weakened Sunni power base.

Then the terrorists will develop new tactics in this messy environment and export this to other middle east countries in order to destabilize the region further. The Saudi Kingdom will be threatened by internal jihadists supported by foriegn terrorists.

Meanwhile, oil prices will go through the roof. Western economies will take a huge hit and inflation will soar.

With the world in chaos, China will seize the opportunity to invade Taiwan. The United States will be forced by treaty to support Taiwan and threaten military action against China. China will give us the finger and we will simultaneously invade Taiwan to liberate it and boycott all Chinese products.

Western economies will spiral further down due to the lack of cheap goods as terrorists export violence to the rest of Europe. China, Iran, and Pakistan will declare a nuclear alliance. India will seek help from the U.S.

The U.S. and Europe will be unable to fight the middle and far east at the same time and institue conscription. A global conflict will ensue as the U.S. and Europe invade China and Iran.

Russia will be forced to make a decision, join Chinese Alliance or join Europe.

Urban battlefield tactics will be completely unnegotiable without civilan Casulaites. The west will be forced into true attrition warfare and purposely kill civilians.

Palestinains will dance in the streets. Liberals will scream that the U.S. is Evil. Bush will go down in history as the man who started WW3 with a preemptive invasion into a country without WMD or foriegn terrorists.


I am really looking foward to this crap.

[Strike For The South]

WOW

[Tribesman]

I am really looking foward to this crap.
Oi !!!!! Behave yourself Divinus , are you after my job of "cynical old git" ?

[Ianofsmeg16]

No offence to you Yankee's out there...and remember this aint being political now..

Why the hell don't we get out there?
We've done our job, overstayed our welcome and now are paying the price...let's pull out now and watch Divinus Arma's profecy come true...

Iraq Issues Arrest Warrant for UK Troops

I'd like to see them come and get the soldiers

[Tribesman]

I'd like to see them come and get the soldiers
They don't have to .
Unlike the Americans , the British troops can be bought before the British courts , the european courts and the ICC , if their is any validity in the charges levelled by the Iraqis .
One of the claims being made by the Iraqi judiciary is that the troops were not British . I wonder if there is any truth in that and what effect it woud have on any outcome .

[_Martyr_]

If we start fighting a government that WE instituted, Iraq will compltely go to crap.

We will lose all legtimicay and have to leave immediatley.

Then Iraq will suffer a horrible civil war. The Government will totally collapse and their will be no law, just regional strongmen.

The Kurds will declare independence in the North, drawing Turkey in to brutally squash it before Turkish Kurds attempt to secede.

The Sunnis will attempt to reassert their former authority by waging a genocidal war against the Shiites. Iran, mostly shiite, will get involved because they no longer have a reason not to. They still have scars from the Iraq/Iran war and will happily destroy a weakened Sunni power base.

Then the terrorists will develop new tactics in this messy environment and export this to other middle east countries in order to destabilize the region further. The Saudi Kingdom will be threatened by internal jihadists supported by foriegn terrorists.

Meanwhile, oil prices will go through the roof. Western economies will take a huge hit and inflation will soar.

With the world in chaos, China will seize the opportunity to invade Taiwan. The United States will be forced by treaty to support Taiwan and threaten military action against China. China will give us the finger and we will simultaneously invade Taiwan to liberate it and boycott all Chinese products.

Western economies will spiral further down due to the lack of cheap goods as terrorists export violence to the rest of Europe. China, Iran, and Pakistan will declare a nuclear alliance. India will seek help from the U.S.

The U.S. and Europe will be unable to fight the middle and far east at the same time and institue conscription. A global conflict will ensue as the U.S. and Europe invade China and Iran.

Russia will be forced to make a decision, join Chinese Alliance or join Europe.

Urban battlefield tactics will be completely unnegotiable without civilan Casulaites. The west will be forced into true attrition warfare and purposely kill civilians.

Palestinains will dance in the streets. Liberals will scream that the U.S. is Evil. Bush will go down in history as the man who started WW3 with a preemptive invasion into a country without WMD or foriegn terrorists.


I am really looking foward to this crap.

Classic!

[Ice]

]No offence to you Yankee's out there...and remember this aint being political now..

Why the hell don't we get out there?
We've done our job, overstayed our welcome and now are paying the price...let's pull out now and watch Divinus Arma's profecy come true...

You aren't going to pull out because Great Britian has a spine, that's why.

[English assassin]

There's having a spine and there's just being bloody minded, though. I can't see what good the troops are doing. If we don't leave, it can only be on the basis that we broke it so we have to try to mend it. Though god knows how

Unlike the Americans , the British troops can be bought before the British courts , the european courts and the ICC , if their is any validity in the charges levelled by the Iraqis .

This is of course an argument in favour of going and getting them back from the hands of the iraqi authorities, oh no, they weren't in the hands of the authorities were they, they had been handed over to the militia. Anyway, there is in theory no question the troops will not escape justice if they had in fact done wrong.

Exactly. Last I looked, if you go somewhere, you are subject to those laws

I only know about the UK and the old FDR but there were visiting forces agreements in those cases. I would expect that is common if not universal for any country stationing large numbers of troops abroad.

[Ice]

There's having a spine and there's just being bloody minded, though. I can't see what good the troops are doing. If we don't leave, it can only be on the basis that we broke it so we have to try to mend it. Though god knows how

They are obligated to stay. When they agreed to send troops to Iraq, they knew if it was going bad, like now, that they could not just get up and run with their tail between their legs or the whole country would go to hell. Thank God they aren't like Spain and didn't leave after getting attacked. I really admire GB, a realible ally.

[Adrian II]

I only know about the UK and the old FDR but there were visiting forces agreements in those cases. I would expect that is common if not universal for any country stationing large numbers of troops abroad.

I responded to that in a previous thread.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...2&postcount=59

[English assassin]

So you did. Well that seems to settle it in our favour.

They are obligated to stay. When they agreed to send troops to Iraq, they knew if it was going bad, like now, that they could not just get up and run with their tail between their legs or the whole country would go to hell. Thank God they aren't like Spain and didn't leave after getting attacked. I really admire GB, a realible ally.

It is of course possible we would have served you better by trying to stop you doing the whole silly thing from the start, but I expect you are right we will stick it out to the end now.

[Adrian II]

So you did. Well that seems to settle it in our favour.

According to your government, it does. No surprise there. I wonder, however, what the status of the occupation force's self-made rules is now that Iraq has formally reverted to sovereignty.

[English assassin]

According to your government, it does. No surprise there. I wonder, however, what the status of the occupation force's self-made rules is now that Iraq has formally reverted to sovereignty

Interesting though this point may be, at some point someone, and it might as well be me, is going to say, rules, shmules, we had the APCs and we used them. As I said in an earlier thread it must feel like this being American.

For what it is worth so far as I know the fact that soveriegnty has passed to a new body does not undo the acts of the formerly soveriegn power unless and until the new power says it does. Any other doctrine would be quite inconvenient, as it would mean at the moment of transfer the territory is wholly without law. Not a likely result. So unless and until the new Iraqi government validly issues a new law governing the status of UK forces in Iraq we seem to be free and clear.

[Adrian II]

For what it is worth so far as I know the fact that soveriegnty has passed to a new body does not undo the acts of the formerly soveriegn power unless and until the new power says it does. Any other doctrine would be quite inconvenient, as it would mean at the moment of transfer the territory is wholly without law. Not a likely result. So unless and until the new Iraqi government validly issues a new law governing the status of UK forces in Iraq we seem to be free and clear.

The rub in this whole matter seems to be that the new Iraqi government is merely provisional and will remain so until it has been granted its full responsiblity under the Constitution-in-spe. Thus it can not enter in any sort of international agreement on the status of foreign forces on its soil. I would think that upon the return of sovereignty, all laws of the former Iraqi government stand unless decreed otherwise by the new government. Obviously this is not what Her Majesty's Government wants to hear. And Her Majesty's Govermnent indeed possesses the APC's to enforce its view. Even though, as we saw in images of last Monday's riots, the APC's appear to have a capacity for spontaneous combustion that is quite on a par with the political situation in the British sector.

[King Ragnar]

Yep now its time to definatley pull out i dont want any more of our boys dying for some pointless reason.

[English assassin]

Even though, as we saw in images of last Monday's riots, the APC's appear to have a capacity for spontaneous combustion that is quite on a par with the political situation in the British sector.

True enough, I too would have cut loose with the Raden cannon and lets see who thinks its a smart idea to chuck a petrol bomb at an APC after that*, but its not like you to take a metaphorical shot at squaddies being very careful to avoid civilian casualties at some risk to themselves?

(*not really. I might have squashed a couple as I drove off though)

I don't really understand your analysis of the sovereignty point. Immediately after the defeta of the Iraqi regime, sovereignty was being exercised by the allied forces, in accordance with what I understand are well known laws of war. As sovereign authority the forces issued a law governing the status of their members. So far so good. Any law that Mr Hussein's regime may have had on the issue is necessarily impliedly repealed.

Soveriegnty has been transfered to "the Iraqis". Still, OK, that will not of itself negate the law. And, finally, the body able to exercise sovereignty on behalf of the iraqis is not yet fuilly constituted. So as I understand it no one has/is yet able to conclude a proper visiting forces agreement. Therefore the interim arrangement stands as the last valid act of a sovereign authority in iraq on the subject.

Whether any of this is a good idea is a different issue, but jurisprudentially it seems to hang together. Though someone seems to have nicked my public international law book and the fact I have only just noticed shows how often I have to look any of these things up...

[Adrian II]

(..) its not like you to take a metaphorical shot at squaddies being very careful to avoid civilian casualties at some risk to themselves?

Not really. What I mean to say is that methods and instruments of war are ill-suited to the present situation. The considerable military strength of those 8000 men (which I do not doubt for a moment) is of little use, and the militias are no doubt going to exploit this inherent weakness further.

I don't really understand your analysis of the sovereignty point. (..) Soveriegnty has been transfered to "the Iraqis". Still, OK, that will not of itself negate the law.

I think it does (or should do) because the occupation has formally come to an end, hence there is no reason to uphold occupation law. It appears that the occupation (and the laws promulgated thereby) has been endorsed by the Security Council several times. Those occupation laws cover the present period of transition (setting dates for the popular vote etcetera) but as far as I know they do not cover the present status of the international forces on Iraqi territory.

Therefore the interim arrangement stands as the last valid act of a sovereign authority in iraq on the subject.

There has been no formal Iraqi surrender, therefore there is no Iraqi agreement to any terms whatsoever. The occupation law was promulgated at a time when there were no Iraqi authorities; these are still in the process of being constituted as we write. Nor is there a status of forces agreement (SOF). There is only a remnant of the occupation law (Order 17) and that remnant is now challenged by the Iraqi authorities in Basra. Isn't it logical that occupation laws come to an end once an occupation ends?

Oh wait, I forgot Law is firmly anchored outside the realm of logic.

You may be fully correct, English Assassin. I will get back to you if I can find out more about this.

[Ronin]

If we start fighting a government that WE instituted, Iraq will compltely go to crap.

We will lose all legtimicay and have to leave immediatley.

Then Iraq will suffer a horrible civil war. The Government will totally collapse and their will be no law, just regional strongmen.

The Kurds will declare independence in the North, drawing Turkey in to brutally squash it before Turkish Kurds attempt to secede.

The Sunnis will attempt to reassert their former authority by waging a genocidal war against the Shiites. Iran, mostly shiite, will get involved because they no longer have a reason not to. They still have scars from the Iraq/Iran war and will happily destroy a weakened Sunni power base.

Then the terrorists will develop new tactics in this messy environment and export this to other middle east countries in order to destabilize the region further. The Saudi Kingdom will be threatened by internal jihadists supported by foriegn terrorists.

Meanwhile, oil prices will go through the roof. Western economies will take a huge hit and inflation will soar.

With the world in chaos, China will seize the opportunity to invade Taiwan. The United States will be forced by treaty to support Taiwan and threaten military action against China. China will give us the finger and we will simultaneously invade Taiwan to liberate it and boycott all Chinese products.

Western economies will spiral further down due to the lack of cheap goods as terrorists export violence to the rest of Europe. China, Iran, and Pakistan will declare a nuclear alliance. India will seek help from the U.S.

The U.S. and Europe will be unable to fight the middle and far east at the same time and institue conscription. A global conflict will ensue as the U.S. and Europe invade China and Iran.

Russia will be forced to make a decision, join Chinese Alliance or join Europe.

Urban battlefield tactics will be completely unnegotiable without civilan Casulaites. The west will be forced into true attrition warfare and purposely kill civilians.

Palestinains will dance in the streets. Liberals will scream that the U.S. is Evil. Bush will go down in history as the man who started WW3 with a preemptive invasion into a country without WMD or foriegn terrorists.


I am really looking foward to this crap.

*does the "I told you so dance"*