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Thread: Abortion
I've never really given much thought to abortion before, as it has never had any relevance in my life in any way shape or form, up until now that is.
A friend of mine has just been released from the hospital after a bout of day surgery for the above mentioned. As I was waiting for her I started thinking about the issues involved.
Is it moral? Hmm, not really sure if I am able to answer that one. I tried to think of it from more than my own standpoint. First line of thought was, is it murder? My initial response to my own question was no, of course not which led me to question the reasoning behind this assumption. I immediately thought of my youngest child. My little boy, aged 2 1/2. I thought, well if my wife had of said after the first two kids, she could not proceed/cope with this one and gone ahead and had the abortion then my little man would not be here today.
Clearly murder when you can put a personality to the victim.
But, and theres always a but right?
At what age is the foetus considered a living entity with rights as a human being? Can the unborn child be considered a victim?
Wow, what have I done. How can I answer this question?
After about an hour of continuous thought (no mean feat for me
) I decided to take the cowards way out.
I believe, ultimately, after all avenues of discussion are exhausted, the final decision must rest squarely in the hands of the woman carrying. I can see both sides of the coin here and find it difficult to park myself firmly on either side of the fence.
Oh what a joy to be born on the male side of the road.
Any thoughts?
(please try to keep religion out of it as it will only lead to trouble for all concerned. It really has no place in this debate)
A friend of mine has just been released from the hospital after a bout of day surgery for the above mentioned. As I was waiting for her I started thinking about the issues involved.
Is it moral? Hmm, not really sure if I am able to answer that one. I tried to think of it from more than my own standpoint. First line of thought was, is it murder? My initial response to my own question was no, of course not which led me to question the reasoning behind this assumption. I immediately thought of my youngest child. My little boy, aged 2 1/2. I thought, well if my wife had of said after the first two kids, she could not proceed/cope with this one and gone ahead and had the abortion then my little man would not be here today.
Clearly murder when you can put a personality to the victim.
But, and theres always a but right?
At what age is the foetus considered a living entity with rights as a human being? Can the unborn child be considered a victim?
Wow, what have I done. How can I answer this question?
After about an hour of continuous thought (no mean feat for me
) I decided to take the cowards way out.I believe, ultimately, after all avenues of discussion are exhausted, the final decision must rest squarely in the hands of the woman carrying. I can see both sides of the coin here and find it difficult to park myself firmly on either side of the fence.
Oh what a joy to be born on the male side of the road.
Any thoughts?
(please try to keep religion out of it as it will only lead to trouble for all concerned. It really has no place in this debate)
Originally Posted by Revelation:
Clearly murder when you can put a personality to the victim.
If your son grows up and become a new Hitler, does that make you a mass murderer as well ? Clearly murder when you can put a personality to the victim.
Your logic doesn't really fit in to reality. You don't know what you are dealing with until it's born, and actually not even then.......
Originally Posted by :
If your son grows up and become a new Hitler, does that make you a mass murderer as well ?
Is the logic here that it is ok to murder young children just in case they turn out to be another Hilter? I can see how you might disagree with Revelations uncertainties about this issue, but how logical is this statement?If your son grows up and become a new Hitler, does that make you a mass murderer as well ?
Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester:
Is the logic here that it is ok to murder young children just in case they turn out to be another Hilter? I can see how you might disagree with Revelations uncertainties about this issue, but how logical is this statement?
No logic at all, just as there are no logic to call abortion murder..... Is the logic here that it is ok to murder young children just in case they turn out to be another Hilter? I can see how you might disagree with Revelations uncertainties about this issue, but how logical is this statement?
Both pro-life and pro-choice positions are logical, just derived from different initial premisses. This is why argument between the two sides is fruitless. You can disagree a pro-life position, but anyone who says it is not based on logic does not understand the arguments.
Originally Posted by Revelation:
At what age is the foetus considered a living entity with rights as a human being? Can the unborn child be considered a victim?
I think this question has to be answered by the authorities (=by the law), depending of rational thoughts as well as tradition.At what age is the foetus considered a living entity with rights as a human being? Can the unborn child be considered a victim?
Originally Posted by bmolsson:
No logic at all, just as there are no logic to call abortion murder.....
No logic at all, just as there are no logic to call abortion murder.....
Care to elaborate?
If a woman does not want a child, she should not concieve. Its as simple as that.
When it gets to the point where she has to have someone tear her living child out of her own womb, its too late - and murder.
With adoption and modern social services, there is but one legitimate cause for an abortion - to save the mother's life. In such a case, a utilitarian approach must be taken.
Oh and..
When it gets to the point where she has to have someone tear her living child out of her own womb, its too late - and murder.
With adoption and modern social services, there is but one legitimate cause for an abortion - to save the mother's life. In such a case, a utilitarian approach must be taken.
Oh and..
Originally Posted by :
(please try to keep religion out of it as it will only lead to trouble for all concerned. It really has no place in this debate)
It has as much a place in this debate as your opinion or mine.(please try to keep religion out of it as it will only lead to trouble for all concerned. It really has no place in this debate)
Originally Posted by Revelation:
Care to elaborate?
The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.Care to elaborate?
I'd be interested to know how religion directly effects this debate? Fantasy has no place here.
What if I told you that abortion is never needed to save the life of the mother? There is only one reason for abortion and thats because the woman does not want a baby. Its now used as just another form of birth control.
The number of times this topic has been flogged to death....I suggest this should be stickied.
I’m Pro-choice. I don’t think that abortion should be used as a means of birth control but it is still a choice that the mother has to make. The biggest reason I say pro-choice is because of situations of incest, rape and the health of the mother.
If you play you pay is one way to look at it but it does make me think that a child shouldn’t be forced to be raised or brought into a family that doesn’t want it, cant afford it or wouldn’t be good parents to it. I hate the way some parents treat their kids
and it makes me wish it weren’t so easy to have children (I wish there could be a test you had to pass before you are given the ability to conceive 
) but it doesn’t give me the right to force people to do what I think is best.
Any law against abortion would just cause people to break the law. My suggestion would be to encourage people on an individual basis to make the choice that is right for them.
Edit: Religion affects this because religious people try and follow the rules of their religion, duh. If the rules of their religion are interpreted to make followers believe that abortion is murder and murder is bad… well I’m sure you see the connection but anyone getting an abortion would be turning their back on their religion.
If you play you pay is one way to look at it but it does make me think that a child shouldn’t be forced to be raised or brought into a family that doesn’t want it, cant afford it or wouldn’t be good parents to it. I hate the way some parents treat their kids
and it makes me wish it weren’t so easy to have children (I wish there could be a test you had to pass before you are given the ability to conceive ) but it doesn’t give me the right to force people to do what I think is best. Any law against abortion would just cause people to break the law. My suggestion would be to encourage people on an individual basis to make the choice that is right for them.
Edit: Religion affects this because religious people try and follow the rules of their religion, duh. If the rules of their religion are interpreted to make followers believe that abortion is murder and murder is bad… well I’m sure you see the connection but anyone getting an abortion would be turning their back on their religion.
Originally Posted by :
That's quite a statement Gawain. Good luck backing it up.
Your wish is my command That's quite a statement Gawain. Good luck backing it up.
Originally Posted by :
An abortion is never medically necessary to save the life of the mother.
"There are no conceivable clinical situations today where abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. In fact, if her health is threatened and an abortion is performed, the abortion increases risks the mother will incur regarding her health."
—Dr. Bernard Nathanson, American Bioethics Advisory Commission
An abortion is never medically necessary to save the life of the mother.
"There are no conceivable clinical situations today where abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. In fact, if her health is threatened and an abortion is performed, the abortion increases risks the mother will incur regarding her health."
—Dr. Bernard Nathanson, American Bioethics Advisory Commission
LINK
Originally Posted by :
LIFE OF THE MOTHER -- ANOTHER PHONY BAN. Life Principles call for equal care and protection for both a pregnant mother and her preborn child, and hold that it is never necessary intentionally to kill a preborn human in existence at fertilization. No malady is cured by murder. Prolife doctors state that partial-birth procedure is not needed to save the life, health or future fertility of a mother. (Congressional Record, Sep 19, 1996, H10637.) The "health" exception is called a phony ban; "life of the mother" exception must be rejected also as a phony ban because it attempts to authorize feminist/abortionists to do exactly what they say they do in partial-birth murder. Prolifers must just say NO to partial-birth murder and mean it, to serve the good of feminists/abortionists as well as our whole society.
LIFE OF THE MOTHER -- ANOTHER PHONY BAN. Life Principles call for equal care and protection for both a pregnant mother and her preborn child, and hold that it is never necessary intentionally to kill a preborn human in existence at fertilization. No malady is cured by murder. Prolife doctors state that partial-birth procedure is not needed to save the life, health or future fertility of a mother. (Congressional Record, Sep 19, 1996, H10637.) The "health" exception is called a phony ban; "life of the mother" exception must be rejected also as a phony ban because it attempts to authorize feminist/abortionists to do exactly what they say they do in partial-birth murder. Prolifers must just say NO to partial-birth murder and mean it, to serve the good of feminists/abortionists as well as our whole society.
Originally Posted by :
The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.
The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.
Originally Posted by :
LAW. Partial-birth abortion is homicide, and when done with intent is murder. There is no justification in the law of God or man for the State or a born human intentionally to kill an innocent born or preborn human or attempt to authorize anyone else to do so, as the Nuremberg Trials tell us. Each person is individually responsible for crimes against humanity. No one -- not the Court, Congress, President, or people operating in the name of right to life -- no one may authorize murder. Roe v. Wade only decriminalized abortion and could not make it legal.
Self-defense does not apply to abortion because a preborn human is always innocent and never an unjust aggressor.
LAW. Partial-birth abortion is homicide, and when done with intent is murder. There is no justification in the law of God or man for the State or a born human intentionally to kill an innocent born or preborn human or attempt to authorize anyone else to do so, as the Nuremberg Trials tell us. Each person is individually responsible for crimes against humanity. No one -- not the Court, Congress, President, or people operating in the name of right to life -- no one may authorize murder. Roe v. Wade only decriminalized abortion and could not make it legal.
Self-defense does not apply to abortion because a preborn human is always innocent and never an unjust aggressor.
LINK
Originally Posted by yesdachi:
I’m Pro-choice. I don’t think that abortion should be used as a means of birth control but it is still a choice that the mother has to make. The biggest reason I say pro-choice is because of situations of incest, rape and the health of the mother.
If you play you pay is one way to look at it but it does make me think that a child shouldn’t be forced to be raised or brought into a family that doesn’t want it, cant afford it or wouldn’t be good parents to it. I hate the way some parents treat their kids and it makes me wish it weren’t so easy to have children (I wish there could be a test you had to pass before you are given the ability to conceive ) but it doesn’t give me the right to force people to do what I think is best.
Any law against abortion would just cause people to break the law. My suggestion would be to encourage people on an individual basis to make the choice that is right for them.
Edit: Religion affects this because religious people try and follow the rules of their religion, duh. If the rules of their religion are interpreted to make followers believe that abortion is murder and murder is bad… well I’m sure you see the connection but anyone getting an abortion would be turning their back on their religion.
I agree with much of what you say. No women should be forced to carry the child of her rapist and who knows what deformities children conceived in incest would have. However, with the second part of your post, haven't you heard of adoption? There are plenty of couples who are unable to have children but desperately want one. Due to the lack of available "adoptees", many people go to the Third World to often literally buy babies.I’m Pro-choice. I don’t think that abortion should be used as a means of birth control but it is still a choice that the mother has to make. The biggest reason I say pro-choice is because of situations of incest, rape and the health of the mother.
If you play you pay is one way to look at it but it does make me think that a child shouldn’t be forced to be raised or brought into a family that doesn’t want it, cant afford it or wouldn’t be good parents to it. I hate the way some parents treat their kids
and it makes me wish it weren’t so easy to have children (I wish there could be a test you had to pass before you are given the ability to conceive ) but it doesn’t give me the right to force people to do what I think is best. Any law against abortion would just cause people to break the law. My suggestion would be to encourage people on an individual basis to make the choice that is right for them.
Edit: Religion affects this because religious people try and follow the rules of their religion, duh. If the rules of their religion are interpreted to make followers believe that abortion is murder and murder is bad… well I’m sure you see the connection but anyone getting an abortion would be turning their back on their religion.
abortion should only be available if the baby is carrying a disease, or deformity. if the mother does not want a child, then adoption is the way to go, and give someone else a child...
Originally Posted by bmolsson:
The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.
Depends on the jurisdiction. In some US states, killing a pregnant woman will net the perpetrator a double-homicide conviction and sentence.example The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.
Instead of the "It's Alive!", "No, it's a clump of cells!" argument we usually devolve to...
Would Tavernites like to suggest/discuss some test or standard for 'life' (i.e. human-ness)? When is the breath of life breathed into us: conception? first 3 months? second? with our first breath?
Originally Posted by :
I'd be interested to know how religion directly effects this debate? Fantasy has no place here.
The opinion of a religious institution is just as valid as your own opinion. In fact, since religion affects the lives of many people, a discussion of the views on abortion of particular religions are probably more important in this debate than your own opinion. I'd be interested to know how religion directly effects this debate? Fantasy has no place here.
Besides those facts, a large part of the Pro-Life movement is driven by religious beliefs. Why would those beliefs and people have no place in this debate?
Originally Posted by King Henry V:
I agree with much of what you say. No women should be forced to carry the child of her rapist and who knows what deformities children conceived in incest would have. However, with the second part of your post, haven't you heard of adoption? There are plenty of couples who are unable to have children but desperately want one. Due to the lack of available "adoptees", many people go to the Third World to often literally buy babies.
Adoption is a great alternative and it is what I would probably encourage people on an individual basis to do if they were dead set on not wanting to not keep the child. But to play devils advocate, I have heard comparisons that our orphanages are as over crowded as our prisons. And if a child isn’t adopted in the first 6 months that the chance of being adopted is reduced severely. I think many people go outside the country to adopt because it is “trendy” and easy if the parents are looking for something specific. I’m no authority but I do have an adopted sister and from what I have seen anything outside a prearranged adoption would be scary. Maybe not as scary as an abortion but its another reason I am Pro-Chhoice.I agree with much of what you say. No women should be forced to carry the child of her rapist and who knows what deformities children conceived in incest would have. However, with the second part of your post, haven't you heard of adoption? There are plenty of couples who are unable to have children but desperately want one. Due to the lack of available "adoptees", many people go to the Third World to often literally buy babies.
Well I am not knowledgeable on the situation in America, but in Europe they have to filter out those who want to adopt before they are given any children.
Originally Posted by King Henry V:
Well I am not knowledgeable on the situation in America, but in Europe they have to filter out those who want to adopt before they are given any children.
True here too. But the scary part is not the parents that are adopting but the orphanages the children are in until adopted parents are found. Well I am not knowledgeable on the situation in America, but in Europe they have to filter out those who want to adopt before they are given any children.
Originally Posted by :
The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.
So if the law was changed so that gay people didn't have the legal status of being alive, we could kill them and it wouldn't be murder? The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.
Originally Posted by :
abortion should only be available if the baby is carrying a disease, or deformity.
Did you see the topic started by DevDave recently on abortion? The guy suffered for 36 years but loved life. Who are we to decide if another's life is worth living?abortion should only be available if the baby is carrying a disease, or deformity.
Originally Posted by :
Instead of the "It's Alive!", "No, it's a clump of cells!" argument we usually devolve to...
Would Tavernites like to suggest/discuss some test or standard for 'life' (i.e. human-ness)? When is the breath of life breathed into us: conception? first 3 months? second? with our first breath?
Sounds kind of like the same thing...Instead of the "It's Alive!", "No, it's a clump of cells!" argument we usually devolve to...
Would Tavernites like to suggest/discuss some test or standard for 'life' (i.e. human-ness)? When is the breath of life breathed into us: conception? first 3 months? second? with our first breath?
I'd say conception. By definition, life is concieved then.
Crazed Rabbit
Im prolife in all circumstances except rape period Its funny how people can support abortion where the person about to die has not done one thing wrong but yet are anti death where the person has committed the most hanoues act (murder) on another human that is possible funny huh
Abortion is only supported by those who have been born themselves-Ronald Reagan
Abortion is only supported by those who have been born themselves-Ronald Reagan
Originally Posted by strike for the south:
Im prolife in all circumstances except rape period Its funny how people can support abortion where the person about to die has not done one thing wrong but yet are anti death where the person has committed the most hanoues act (murder) on another human that is possible funny huh
Abortion is only supported by those who have been born themselves-Ronald Reagan
I would add that anyone that commits an act of rape be “aborted”. Im prolife in all circumstances except rape period Its funny how people can support abortion where the person about to die has not done one thing wrong but yet are anti death where the person has committed the most hanoues act (murder) on another human that is possible funny huh
Abortion is only supported by those who have been born themselves-Ronald Reagan
Originally Posted by :
Really, Gawain, those are just anti-abortion doctors doing what they do best: Conveniently ignoring some facts, while raising others high aloft their head.
Reakky? I work at a Uni that is one of the buggest medical colleges in the US and all the nureses in the pediatric section say there is no reason with todays medical procedures to have to abort a baby to save the mothers life. Come on give me one recent example of an abortion saving a womens life. Really, Gawain, those are just anti-abortion doctors doing what they do best: Conveniently ignoring some facts, while raising others high aloft their head.
Originally Posted by :
True here too. But the scary part is not the parents that are adopting but the orphanages the children are in until adopted parents are found.
Baies dont go to or at least stay in orphanages. Every newborn that is put up for adobtion not only is scooped up right away but has people fighting to get it before its even born.True here too. But the scary part is not the parents that are adopting but the orphanages the children are in until adopted parents are found.
Originally Posted by :
The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.
So does "barbaricly slaughtered" sound better to you? How anyone can deny its human and alive is totally beyond me. Thats all that counts in my book.The fetus doesn't have the legal status of being alive, hence it can't be murdered.
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
So if the law was changed so that gay people didn't have the legal status of being alive, we could kill them and it wouldn't be murder?
Yes. During slavery, slaves could be killed without it being considered murder, but that is not really the issue here, is it.....So if the law was changed so that gay people didn't have the legal status of being alive, we could kill them and it wouldn't be murder?
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
I'd say conception. By definition, life is concieved then.
So that means that just after I have knocked up my wife, I can sign over my yacht to the unborn child and reduce my tax ?? I'd say conception. By definition, life is concieved then.
Originally Posted by :
Yes. During slavery, slaves could be killed without it being considered murder, but that is not really the issue here, is it.....
It is exactly the issue. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right.Yes. During slavery, slaves could be killed without it being considered murder, but that is not really the issue here, is it.....
Originally Posted by :
So that means that just after I have knocked up my wife, I can sign over my yacht to the unborn child and reduce my tax ??
I don't know about the laws regarding property transfer in Indonesia.So that means that just after I have knocked up my wife, I can sign over my yacht to the unborn child and reduce my tax ??
Crazed Rabbit
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
It is exactly the issue. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right.
You asked for legality.It is exactly the issue. Just because it is legal doesn't make it right.
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit:
I don't know about the laws regarding property transfer in Indonesia.
How about your country, or in your view. If a fetus is alive and should have civil rights, of course it should be able to own a yacht..... I don't know about the laws regarding property transfer in Indonesia.
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny:
Reakky? I work at a Uni that is one of the buggest medical colleges in the US and all the nureses in the pediatric section say there is no reason with todays medical procedures to have to abort a baby to save the mothers life. Come on give me one recent example of an abortion saving a womens life.
Okay apart from chatting up the young nurses what is your job at Uni? You don't have to answer if you don't want to.Reakky? I work at a Uni that is one of the buggest medical colleges in the US and all the nureses in the pediatric section say there is no reason with todays medical procedures to have to abort a baby to save the mothers life. Come on give me one recent example of an abortion saving a womens life.
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