What are the stats for a unit of hastati?

[Steppe Merc]

You want the stats from the right-handed or left-handed Hastati? I heard EB nerfed left-handed Hastati because the game is hard-coded so all Hastati must hold the gladius in their right-hand, and left-handed Hastati suffer from a weaker right-arm strenght and practice.

No, you've got it backwards. We had difficulty in balancing the left handed Eastern archers, who could fire their bow with either hand, however CA didn't allow the archers to switch bow hands at will.

[zemaniak]

gee, why do I get the feeling you won't get a clear answer..

[QwertyMIDX]

The current stats for the Early Hastati are as follows, like everything else in EB this is a WIP.

melee attack: 11 (leathality 0.1)
missile attack: 4 (AP)
defense: 19 (7 armor, 3 shield)
morale: 11

Clear enough?

Thanks, guys that was fun.

[zemaniak]

thx for the heads-up...but your answer brings up some questions:

1) 7 armor, even though they have none (??), but only 3 for shield
2) with such low missile stats, do any kills occur per volley ?

[QwertyMIDX]

A helmet and a greave are in fact armour last time I checked .

[kayapó]

thx for the heads-up...but your answer brings up some questions:

1) 7 armor, even though they have none (??), but only 3 for shield
2) with such low missile stats, do any kills occur per volley ?

Stats don't behave very logicaly. So you can't be like: If no armor= 0; if chain armor = 5; if plate armor = 10. This kind of aproach to them isn't good. They are abstractions, not written on hard stone.

[soibean]

In RTR 6.1, the Gaul Mercenary slingers with 2 chevrons of experience only did 4 missile damage and this would kill maybe 4 men per volley, this was against another gaul slinger unit. Well they did have some armor, the helmet and that small chest piece to protect the heart. I'd think that the shield would have to be more, but the defense skill sounds right.
What did you mean by leathality (0.1)?

[QwertyMIDX]

There are game mechanics reasons why shield defense is kept low.

Also please not that the missile attack is 4 with AP.



This is the unit BTW, in case people want to take a look and compare.

[khelvan]

Posting the unit doesn't help you guys, as you lack the context to understand the numbers. We're not revealing the whole system just yet, so I am afraid showing the stats for one unit will create more questions than it answers.

[Mr Frost]

There are game mechanics reasons why shield defense is kept low...

That's interesting . What problems arise from larger values and at what sort of rate do they accrue ?

In my personal mods , I've been using values up to 10 for the largest and best designed shields and havn't yet had any noticable problems apparantly stemming from it .
For context , my armour values max at 16 for the heaviest Cataphracts {for cavalry I take the average between the riders' armour and the horses' -which is armour + 3 due to the horses thicker skin and tougher frame- Armoured Elephants are the only ones with higher and cavalry shields are only half value also} with Legionares as example at 10 , skill ranges that centre on a value of 10 {eg: Princepes and Basic Legionares} , attack rates mostly around 10 and lethality ratings mostly below 0.5 {eg: Princepes 0.35 , Legionares and most spears 0.4 Gauls/Germans with longswords 0.5 , Falx 1} .

What problem or other would might I have failed to notice {or associate with higher shield ratings} ?



Edit :put a bracket in wrong place

[econ21]

The current stats for the Early Hastati are as follows, like everything else in EB this is a WIP.

melee attack: 11 (leathality 0.1)
missile attack: 4 (AP)
defense: 19 (7 armor, 3 shield)
morale: 11

Thanks, QwertyMIDX. That's interesting - I appreciate it's WIP; I'm just interested to see how you thinking at the moment.

I confess like Soibean I don't know what lethality does in game. Anyone know what the default value is in vanilla? I'm wondering if lowering lethality is how EB has chosen to slow down the kill speeds? The differential between the attack and the defence stat, which in STW and MTW used to determine kill chances, seems pretty much the same as in vanilla.

Morale also seems close to vanilla's, unlike RTR 6.1 where it is doubled.

Does anyone know if the AP property halves the effect of shields as well as armour? If so, it looks like javelins will be similar in effectiveness to vanilla; otherwise they will be reduced.

BTW, likening things to vanilla is not an implied criticism. I am a fan of CA's work and don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater.

Posting the unit doesn't help you guys, as you lack the context to understand the numbers. We're not revealing the whole system just yet, so I am afraid showing the stats for one unit will create more questions than it answers.

Don't worry, Khelvan, this is a just discussion forum - not the Spanish inquisition. You are right, we'd need to know about other units, missiles and cav etc. to form a proper views, but I am not going to push my luck with that just yet.

[QwertyMIDX]

Leathality is the % chance a hit has to kill...it only works for melee weapons. Vanilla leathality is 1.
AP does not work of defense gained from shields.
Javs are less effective than in vanilla, though they can still be battle winners if used in a proper support role, you won't see infantry with prec weapons set to fire at will reducing an enemy charge to shambles anymore though.
Morale is sigificantly higher than vanillas, but closer to 1.5x than 2x, though it varies a lot depending on the unit. We didn't do anything so crass as simply double morale .

[econ21]

Thanks again, QwertyMIDX. Reducing melee kill chances to 10% is a pretty big change from vanilla then!

I can also see now why you have toned down javelins to stop the balance of arms (melee vs missiles) getting too far out of whack.

With the shields being resistant to AP, it sounds like I'll have to adopt the RTR 6.1 tactic of sneaking the velites etc around the flanks to avoid hitting the shields.

Is the reduction of lethality across the board or does it vary by unit (or weapon)? I hope the former, so we can still assess unit effectiveness by looking at attack and defence rather than try to also keep any lethality differences in mind. I couldn't find a lethality stat in the units text file, but then I am no modder.

[QwertyMIDX]

Leathality is the final stat on the weapon line of the EDU.