Muslim Cavalry

[Zarax]

With the exception of "foreign service" Kwarziam and AHC, muslim "heavy" cavalry seems not really worth the development efforts, plus some of them (like the mamelukes) seems a bit weird in stat distribution...
How comes that Mameluk HA have higher attack than their melee counterpart and the ottoman sipahi, a late "heavy" unit got absolutely awful stats?

Personally, I think that needs to be rebalanced a bit, so I'm open to any suggestion/proposal for that.

Just like with other similar threads by me, the results will be included in the next ZX mod release

[Graphic]

I think "heavy" for desert fighters is relative. But they could definitely use some truly heavy cavalry for when they step into Europe. I'll leave it people like EYG to suggest stats though

[Zarax]

I think "heavy" for desert fighters is relative. But they could definitely use some truly heavy cavalry for when they step into Europe. I'll leave it people like EYG to suggest stats though

I agree with you, they weren't really heavyin terms of armor, but why did they give them such poor weapon skills?
I'm not going to put any more armor if I mod that, but at least dd some punch to them... Afer all at least the turkish came from the steppes, and it's unlikely that they forgot how to fight on the saddle...

[crpcarrot]

i'm not into stat crunching but SoP seem to do quite ok against cristian heavy cav. just my obsavations maybe other factors involved. still i dont think muslim factions ever adopted the heavy cavalry charge tactic in their warfare.

[Zarax]

SotP are a 20men unit IRC, so it's hard to use them as comparation...

The problem is that muslims had quite effective medium cavalry, that while not really armoured, compensated with martial skills while in game they can barely match mounted sergeants, that are light cavalry by definition...

[bretwalda]

Ottoman Spahis are not Spahis of the Porte (SoP). The former is a fast light cavalry but there is not much use for them: I 'd use valored up Turcoman Horse because they can shoot and that makes up for the weaknesses.

SoP on the other hand is a royal cavalry nice stats and the only heavy cav that can shoot apart from boyars...

[EatYerGreens]

I think "heavy" for desert fighters is relative. But they could definitely use some truly heavy cavalry for when they step into Europe. I'll leave it people like EYG to suggest stats though

Moi?

I appreciate the thought but I'll have to use the "Manuel" clause for this one.

"I know narrrthing."

Sinan might be a good person to ask when it comes to historical aspects, if not actual stats.

I daren't dream up any stats myself because I have little enough experience of gameplay as it is, let alone extensive balance testing. I imagine that tiny changes in stats may have much more far-reaching consquences in game balance terms because you also need to take account of the AI's building habits and troop training tendencies. Make a unit just slightly better than CA made it only to find the AI likes to spam that unit heavily and wipes the floor with the other factions, thanks to the changes made.

So think globally and account for (increased stat) x (numbers trained) on the overall strength of the faction's army. If any units have been watered down, compared to historical qualities, it may be because, historically, they were exceptionally tough units but only made up a tiny proportion of the overall army. You can't be sure of preventing the AI troop training scheme deviating from reality.

Remember that the AI fights other AI factions using autocalc. Some of the factors may have been set, taking this into account. Use the -ian 'autopilot' mode to see what kind of difference the changes make and what sort of numbers of the revised type are getting trained when the AI is in charge.

I'm guessing the changes Zarax plans are to make the experience more interesting for the player in actual battles but the way the AI performs against other AI, in areas of the map over which the player has no real influence is a significant part of the game experience, IMO.

[Zarax]

Personally I think that balancing won't be affected that much by such changes, considering that tech tree plays a far more active role in influencing the unit mix than anything else, so lower tech unit changes are much more influencing than high tech ones.
I learnt a great deal of AI balancing in the first beta, which was mostly aimed towards making the danes capable of developing properly.

The current state of the AI balancing has shown that all factions are capable of growing to considerable size under the AI with the only exception of the turkish (that needs a whole reshaping of their tech tree imho) and the almohads on a minor factor.
Beta 3 is focused on these tweaks as well as high and late period rebalancing (plus making the horde playable), and I found the mulim cavalry roster to be a problem, especially with the turkish (the eggys are able to defends themselves well, but their camel armies are of little use out of desert)...

[Roark]

I have absolutely no problem with the Muslim cavalry. I'm in love with several of them, and I want to have their babies.

- Bedouins: Cheap horse killers with big home ground advantage. Nuff said.
- Mamluk Cav: Armour piercing flankers with easy build requirements.
- Sipahis of the Porte: Best all-rounders in the game. They can do anything.
- Armenian Heavy: Easy to valour up. Easy to armour up. Devastating charge.
- Saharan cav: Eat my dust. Perfect balance to camels and ghulams.

I often use an all-cavalry ultra-mobile army when playing as the Muslim factions, using Turcoman Horse or Faris to take care of spear units from a distance. Catholics are soooo slow.

[Eternal Champion]

I think Roark has this one nailed as I seem to get along better with Muslim cavalry or units in general. I really think the game was designed to offer a different feel and difficulty not just by religion but faction. I think the game would be pretty boring if every faction played the exact same way, with nearly the same troop mix.

On the other hand I also understand what the modders are trying to do with balance so each AI faction has a chance to grow, thus increasing the human challenge. The biggest problem I see for the AI Turks is location not troop selection. They only have several provinces, none a real money maker, and they are completely hemmed in. You have the Byz who are strong in early with troop roster and all those high command Jedi princes, room to expand, and the ultimate ATM in Constantinople. Then you have the Eggies sitting there with plenty of cash to spend in one of the riches sets of provinces in the game. This is just slow death for the Turks if the human player is on the other side of the map. But if the human player is close to either of their foes, just close enough they need to watch you a little, then the situation changes and I've seen the Turks become the 900 pound gorilla in the room. All I think it would take to improve their situation would be a clear shot at all those rebel provinces in the steppes. That seems to be one of the main keys to their expansion from what I've seen.

[Marquis de Said]

[QUOTE=Roark]I have absolutely no problem with the Muslim cavalry. I'm in love with several of them, and I want to have their babies.

[QUOTE]

The horses or the men riding them?