Scythed Chariot Stupidity

[Mikeus Caesar]

I was just wondering, but why do Scythed Chariots go amok, when they're basically just normal horses with a wagon on the back, yet other cav (e.g. Equites) don't? Why don't normal horses go amok as well?

I've been playing nearly a year, and never contemplated this...

[Garvanko]

Personally, I hate them.

[professorspatula]

I think chariots run amok whereas horses don't is to simulate that chariots are more difficult to control in the heat of a battle. The rickety chariots are noisy and clumbersome and I suppose if you add effects of the chaos of battle, the rider may lose control of his horses as they panic and start haring around the place - hence this 'amok' status. It would seem a bit daft that every chariot in the unit loses control at the same time, or that the effect isn't just temporary, but those are the limitations of the RTW engine. Adds a bit of spice to the game I suppose. If all cavalry units ran amok though, that would annoying and silly.

[hoom]

I think its easier to control a horse when you are mounted.
Plenty of fictional & historical works mention horse drawn carts of various types running amok up till quite recently.

There is also the description of the battle of Magnesia where Antiochus' scythed chariots were used in the opening of the battle but ran amok & seriously disrupted the Selucid left wing which contributed greatly to the defeat of the numerically superior & well armed Selucid army.
So this would be where the running amok chariots bit comes from.

That said, the same description also says that the camels went amok at the same time as the chariots & the cataphracts that were left on that flank later pannicked/ran amok when charged by the Roman cavalry.
So it might be reasonable to have cavalry run amok sometimes too.
I wonder if the likelyhood of running amok can be controlled in the unit stats?
I think I might actually have a bit of a fiddle to see what happens when cav runs amok.

[professorspatula]

I wonder if the likelyhood of running amok can be controlled in the unit stats?
I think I might actually have a bit of a fiddle to see what happens when cav runs amok.

There's an attribute in export_descr_units.txt called 'can_run_amok' that pretty much does as it says. For any unit without a mount that has it's own attack (eg elephant, chariot's scythe blades are separate attacks) all that happens is the unit runs around unable to attack or do much. The unit tends to run away and that's the last you see of them. So don't expect your peasants to run amok and start massacring your legionaries during their chaotic stampede.

[Kraxis]

Horses are animals that are 'easily' convinced of something. If you sit on it and have trained with it, it will find you a comforting presence, it will generally heed your commands because you haven't failed it before.

When you stand in a chariot, or any other horsedrawn vehicle it suddenly becomes much more problematic. Not only is the horse closer to another horse, but you have no direct contact with it, only some strap going to its bridle. Great...
Occationally you will see panicking horses in those trot-races. And then you will also see that the rider has a much harder time getting it under control than those of a gallop-rider. Also, those horses are 'pros' yet they often break into gallop, a rider on the back of a horse seldomly can't contol the stride (when er are talking about professional jockeys).

[hoom]

There's an attribute in export_descr_units.txt called 'can_run_amok' that pretty much does as it says.

Yah but is there something that gives it like a percentage chance of running amok when a member of the unit dies?
Maybe morale?
I have seen elephants recover from running amok & if I was going to have cav running amok I'd want it to be quite rarely due to the relative ease of controlling a horse when you are on it & I'd want them to be able to recover most of the time.

chariot's scythe blades are separate attacks

So scythe chariots running amok don't damage your own units?
Or just the chariot doesn't but the blades do...

I'm a gonna do me some experimentin' now

[professorspatula]

Well the unit runs amok when it fails some kind of morale check. No idea about the formula, but heavy casualties obviously help trigger it, although sometimes just the whiff of the enemy is enough to send them crazy. I don't think we can change what is required to force the amok status, probably hardcoded.

Anyway, by separate attack, I wasn't very clear. Elephants and chariots are mounts that have their own attack (well sort-of). Chariots have a separate blade/scythe attack which is independant from the rider (normally the blades don't harm your own guys, but when running amok they do). For a cavalry unit, the mount is a horse and that has no attack of its own as such. When a cavalry unit runs amok, because the horse hasn't got its own attack, it won't kill anyone in the amok state. The poor rider is just taken for an uncontrollable ride until someone puts him out of his misery, or as you suggest - the unit recovers. It's very rare units recover from the amok status though.

So, currently to have horses running amok is pretty pointless. Even if you wanted the horse to have it's own attack - and could give it one - the rider would be restricted to just one attack of their own, as one unit can only have 2 attacks (rider and mount's attack for example).

[Mikeus Caesar]

Ack...i just had a battle where my Scythed Chariots ran amok again, but guess what? They did it during the generals speech, and killed him halfway through. The game got a bit confused, so it just started the battle.

I lost.

[Brutus]

Ack...i just had a battle where my Scythed Chariots ran amok again, but guess what? They did it during the generals speech, and killed him halfway through. The game got a bit confused, so it just started the battle.

I lost.

Pity RTW doesn't give characters different expressions... I can just imagine the look on the general's face...

[AggonyDuck]

I always thought the running amok for the chariots might be used as an effect to recreate a situation where the driver was killed, leaving the horse running around with a scythed chariot behind it....

[Garvanko]

The problem for me isn't that they run amok. Its the fact that it doesn't take much for them to run amok. Theyre supposed to be one of the most fearsome unit around, fer christs sake!

Ditto elephants against Archers..

[Kraxis]

I always thought the running amok for the chariots might be used as an effect to recreate a situation where the driver was killed, leaving the horse running around with a scythed chariot behind it....

That is of course another case for a similar result (thus the drivers were heavily armoured).

[Mikeus Caesar]

Ditto elephants against Archers..

I beg to disagree. Realistically, the elephants would go amok if they were rained upon with hundreds of burning arrows, but that's as far as the game goes realisticly speaking. If it was realistic, the elphants would go blindlessly forward, straight through the enemy ranks, and if they weren't killed, they would most likely keep on going.

[antisocialmunky]

It would be nice if RTW had a better run amok feature so you could dictate what conditions units run amok under. For example, it would be great to see surrounded troops go nuts and start killing each when completely surrounded and 'squeezed' Adrianople or Carnae style.

It'd be fun to see a mod with super high morale levels and all untis set to run amoke.

I'm sure that would be ridiculous with the AI being as stupid as it is.