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  1. #1
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

    None of those sources provide much evidence to back up your claims Don.

    The first one talks about his brother's outburst at his funeral. Nothing about the author being glad Tillman himself was dead. The title of the article, "Pat Tillman's f****** dead", refers to his brother's statement at his funeral.

    The second article calls Tillman's death 'sad' and 'wasteful'. It was indeed both. Again, nothing to imply that he 'got what he deserved'. I think you are misreading sadness at the death of an American as shameful joy.

    The political cartoon was in bad taste and misunderstood Tillman's motivation, certainly. But again, I see no rejoicing in it. Again, it calls attention to the wastefulness of the death and of the entire misguided US military campaign. It does not revel in it. It is not a triumphal procession but a satire, which has its own rules and forms. Jonathan swift was not revelling in the fact that religious disputes had revolved around minuscule and incomprehensible issues when he lampooned them in Gulliver's Travels. Similarly, the cartoonist is not revelling in the deaths of Americans by pointing out that they were needless. In fact, he is doing the opposite.
    Last edited by Hurin_Rules; 09-27-2005 at 19:00.
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

  2. #2
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

    Talk about selective editing, Hurin, shame on you... for those of you who don't want to read the articles, just so Hurin doesn't skew your views.

    The whole quote from MickeyZ's article:
    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyZ
    When Pat Tillman said no to the NFL and yes to killing brown people, no one talked about the team he let down. This handsome white male became an instant hero...a status only enhanced by his sad, wasteful death by friendly fire.
    Playing the race card...

    From the article "Pat Tillman is F^@$ing dead":
    First they used Jessica Lynch, now Pat Tillman
    And finally, I actually found that UMass Collegian editorial I was looking for:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene Gonzalez

    Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him

    By Rene Gonzalez
    April 28, 2004


    When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start talking about him as a 'hero' in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did not want to make that bet. He'd lose. In this self-critical incapable nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He's a hero" response is to be expected.

    I've been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman's "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not surprised. True, it's not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. They should call Pat Tillman's army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed."

    But, does that make him a hero? I guess it's a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It's the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it's understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship.

    However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy.

    Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn't need to insert himself into. It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.

    Perhaps it's the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal of heroism, no matter what they've done. After all, the American nation has no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and credibility problems.

    Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders.

    Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman's service, along with that of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we won't realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their deaths.

    Rene Gonzalez is a UMass graduate student
    Hurin, honestly, maybe the news you see in Canada isn't as carbon copy from what we get down here as you think. I don't know. But for about 2 months, everyone and their brother was getting on television saying "Pat Tillman was no hero, he got killed because he wanted to play Rambo". You weren't here. You don't know.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  3. #3
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    Hurin, honestly, maybe the news you see in Canada isn't as carbon copy from what we get down here as you think. I don't know. But for about 2 months, everyone and their brother was getting on television saying "Pat Tillman was no hero, he got killed because he wanted to play Rambo". You weren't here. You don't know.
    Yes, I do know, because I get the same news as you. I watch mostly CNN. I listen to NPR and my favorite news program is the MacNeill/Lehrer news hour. I watch all the major US network news. I also get US local news from the inland Northwest. I get fox news programs and MSNBC.

    Anyway, I agree with you that the Gonzalez article was full of shameful joy. There, we are in complete agreement, and that piece should deservedly be condemned.

    On the other hand, a grad student writing in a college newspaper in Massachusetts can hardly be seen as a spokesman for The Left. I could find some pretty horrific stuff in the campus newspaper at Bob Jones University, but I don't cite it as proof that Bush wants to reunite church and state, throw all homosexuals in jail or end the feminist movement.

    You are, moreover, misinterpreting the other articles you have cited: they do not contain shameful joy at Tillman's death, but sadness at the waste of American life Bush's misguided military campaigns have caused.

    Saying that Tillman's death was a tragedy is not the same as rejoicing over it; in fact, it is the opposite.
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

  4. #4
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

    Well, I don't know how else to take MickeyZ's comments that he was only too happy to go run off and kill Brown people. I don't know how to take Michael Moore & Susan Sarandon's comments at the time.

    I might understand a case made against Iraq. I cannot understand the case against Afghanistan, as we essentially deprived a hostile power the ability to hit us a second time (something they, the Taliban themselves, publicly reserved the right to do).

    I like you Hurin and I respect you, so I think this is where I need to drop this particular exchange.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  5. #5

    Default Re: Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

    Does this mean Democrats, like Cartoonist Ted Rall and University of Massachussets Student Newspaper editor Rene Gonzalez, will finally stop saying how happy they are Pat Tillman got what he deserved?
    Hmm probably.

    It will take a lot of revision to erase all the horrible things they said about him, but if anyone can pull off that magnitude of doublespeak, its the left. I wouldnt be surprized to see Rall go into full hero worship mode when he finds out about this.. i wonder if he'll even bother taking the other cartoon down.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

    From the article "Pat Tillman is F^@$ing dead":
    Quote:
    First they used Jessica Lynch, now Pat Tillman

    Whats wrong with that statement Don ?
    You single it out as the thing you find offensive about that particular link you posted , so what is your issue with it ?

  7. #7
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

    I really don't want to continue this discussion any further, I'm sorry, I thought I had made that clear. I surrender, you're all absolutely right, the Left has never had a bad thing to say about Pat Tillman, or any serviceman for that matter. Now, on to discussable items.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  8. #8
    Mad Professor Senior Member Hurin_Rules's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pat Tillman, American Hero and Noam Chomsky Fan

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    I like you Hurin and I respect you, so I think this is where I need to drop this particular exchange.
    Fair enough Don. I just wanted you to know in parting that I always had tremendous respect for Tillman. I never said anything remotely like 'he got what he deserved.' This was well before I knew of his leftist leanings. I too have respect for many on the right who sacrificed in war, from Dole to McCain, and I don't question their integrity on this issue.
    "I love this fellow God. He's so deliciously evil." --Stuart Griffin

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