BI issues answered... Got it

[Princeps]

Thank you, CBR

[Bob the Insane]

Lets have some comments on the naval aspects (blockades, ping-pong, etc) please. IMO it was one of the weakest components of RTW.

The start of the game does not appear to have much naval activity so it is hard to say.

There are pirates though, freaking everywhere and they are kicking arse...

[Orda Khan]

Cantabrian circle still yields virtual immunity to foot archers for cav archers. This is very bad news for unarmored foot archers.

.......And a very good historical feature. Cantabrian circle, while devastating against archers, leaves HA vulnerable to light cav attack. I would have been disappointed if archers alone were able to deal effectively with HA

.......Orda

[econ21]

This may have been addressed in a preview, but how does the game deal with the Roman use of barbarians in their army - were they called foederati? Are they supposed to be just represented by mercs? (fair enough, I guess).

[Puzz3D]

.......And a very good historical feature. Cantabrian circle, while devastating against archers, leaves HA vulnerable to light cav attack. I would have been disappointed if archers alone were able to deal effectively with HA

If one takes light cav to counter cav archers, the cav archers never have to use the Cantabrian circle and can use the Parthian shot against chasing cav which can apparently never catch them. If one takes foot archers, the cav archers use Cantabrian circle. So it would seem that the cav archers don't have a counter unit except for another cav archer because you certainly cannot afford to take two units to counter each cav archer. You can take armored units as a counter depending on how costly they are and how effective arrows are against them. Heavily armored units will be tactically limited to defending.

[Orda Khan]

It's the historical conundrum that sedentary armies faced against the many steppe armies that terrorised Europe.

As for counter units and Cantabrian circle ... Again a historical problem and wrecklessly pursuing HA with cav had disasterous consequences. On the other hand, without Cantabrian circle, archers are a match for HA, which is why the HA must employ this method of attack. I would attempt a wide flank with cav and then try to trap them between these flanking units and a direct cav attack from the main line. Not easy admitted, but it should not be easy. If there was a straightforward counter unit the HA factions would be as weak as the Golden Horde was in MTW

.......Orda

[Kraxis]

Many of the horde units have "horde" formation, just like peasants in R:TW. Actually, this is a very good formation for HA. No corners, compact, a good use of their all-round fire. Very handy.

I noticed that when I modded the Parthian and most merc horse archers to be in horde. It is suddenly very easy to control the horse archers as they just turn and run to every command, no more formation turns. And of course it is superior in the chase due to the larger more open footprint.

I have noticed a couple of 'fixed' issues, be they good or bad.

You can't move anything at all across the redzone on the battlefield. Previously units would run some distance into it while chasing or a few individuals simply couldn't stop. Now the border is solid and the units get plastered against it like a wall.

There is no more pilum-lag when you are out of javelins and click to attack (sword). Previously the unit would first try to throw its ranged weapon, now it just attacks. Nice.

Rebel fleets will blockade you for a single round, then go away, then come back and so on. Effective way of staying alive while still very disruptive. They also flee from superior fleets if they get the chance.

Plumbatarii are quite simply the best infantry out there! They are Comitatenses with, count this, 14 plumbata! And they have good range (70) and the best javelin attack out there + AP. You simply do not want allow them to carry out this attack on you. I ripped a unit of Merc Veteranii from 80 to 15 with their plumbata. Naturally the melee was over within seconds. And the best, they are no more expensive than Comitatenses.
Trust me these guys rules in wall-defense, first they deplete the enemy infantry with plumabata then they kill the last few survivors when they get up to them.

In general thrown stuff has greater range while the better archers have now a range of 160 as opposed to 170.

Only certain horse archers have the Cantabrian Circle, for instance the Hippo-toxotai of the Eastern Empire don't have it, neither do the Mercenary Sarmatian Archers. But every light HA has it it seems.

I still think that archery has been nerfed. Perhaps not as much as I first believed (it has been given the advantage of better range from higher places, something that lacked before), but I have several times now experienced battles where my good Eastern Archers have only managed to get singular kills for the use of their entire quiver, even against light cavalry like the Moorish Raiders. I am certain that archers now have less accurate shots.
Btw, did horse archers have more arrows than foot archers before (now it is 40 to 30)?

[Puzz3D]

As for counter units and Cantabrian circle ... Again a historical problem and wrecklessly pursuing HA with cav had disasterous consequences. On the other hand, without Cantabrian circle, archers are a match for HA, which is why the HA must employ this method of attack. I would attempt a wide flank with cav and then try to trap them between these flanking units and a direct cav attack from the main line. Not easy admitted, but it should not be easy. If there was a straightforward counter unit the HA factions would be as weak as the Golden Horde was in MTW.

Yes, I see what you are saying. It takes more complex tactics than simply using a single unit to counter these eastern HA. We're too accustomed to the method in the older games of using a foot archer as a counter to HA. I hope the speed of the game doesn't preclude using complex tactics.

The method you suggest is what Alexander the Great used until he incorporated fast HA in his own army. It requires that the flanking cav be stronger in melee than the HA they are trying to drive before them. Units such as hunnic elite warriors, are quite a bit stronger in melee than western light cav. When upgraded to equal cost, light melee cav such as equites, which have no ranged attack, are equal in melee to hunnic elite warriors. This means there has to be some melee compensation to the western faction to equalize them with the eastern faction so that stronger melee cav can be sent to the flanks while still having strong enough infantry to hold the line. The improved performance of spears is going to be very important so that a frontal charge by the eastern army can't quickly rout the western infantry while their cavalry is off making the wide flanking maneuver.

[Kraxis]

The improved performance of spears is going to be very important so that a frontal charge by the eastern army can't quickly rout the western infantry while their cavalry is off making the wide flanking maneuver.

Yeah forgot to mention this, but spearunits now have a special hidden ability and that is the one that drains the charge of cavalry quite well. Take a look in the descr file and you will see a new attribute called 'spear' that means the unit can resist cavalry charges head on (to an extent of course). That makes spearunits important in keeping cavalry at bay. But most spearunits only get a +4 to attack against cavalry, a few get +6 or +8.

This has unfortunately not been transferred directly to RTW, so I don't know if it fits. But at least the chargevalue is way down and the armour bonus is gone.

[Viking]

This may have been addressed in a preview, but how does the game deal with the Roman use of barbarians in their army - were they called foederati? Are they supposed to be just represented by mercs? (fair enough, I guess).

There are units called foederati infantry and foederati cavalry avaible to WRE from training facilities and as mercenary(to all factions), as you might have found out already.

[Doug-Thompson]

Btw, did horse archers have more arrows than foot archers before (now it is 40 to 30)?

Hmmm. Good question.

Does anybody else think that horse archers move around a lot more now, even when not in Cantabrian circle. My Huns keep moving back and forth even when the target is not moving.

[Kraxis]

Does anybody else think that horse archers move around a lot more now, even when not in Cantabrian circle. My Huns keep moving back and forth even when the target is not moving.

Yes! But I have only been on the recieving end of the Huns, and I can tell you that their AI is vastly improved! I'll start another thread about it because it simply deserves it.

Btw, the 'all-rush-the-gate-it-is-open-due-to-spies' feature/bug has been addressed. This should be a great relief to all.
Spies now kill the oil as well (best change to this). But when I had a Sassanid army attack me when they had a spy on the inside and the gates were opened (damn that bastard), I deployed to repel a rush at the gate. Being the usual suspective person that I am I took notice to some ladders and towers quite far away and posted some troops on the walls to be ready, just in case.
Turned out that was the most brilliant move that day. Two thirds of the Sassanid army rushed the gate, where I expected them to be boiled, not so. The rest took their ladders and towers and attacked far far far away from the gate. Boy... That was tough! My few reserves could only just handle it, and in one case it could not. I had to rush a unit of Lanciarii to the rescue before the enemy reached the plaza. Pleasant to see the AI act so sensible.

[Viking]

If it hasn`t been mentioned already, the AI automatically now turns on their siege towers to 'fire at will'. This only worked for missilie uinits in RTW wich already has 'fire at will' as a standard setting, and has a devastating effect on your soldiers if they are standing on a Large or Epic stonewall. Also the AI now doesn`t wait until the first unit has been completely exterminated before sending up another in the same tower\ladder.

My battle experience is on Medium; does the Hard and VH settings now work properly? And does they add to AI intelligence?

[Ldvs]

First off, thank you for this thread Kraxis, it's very informative and I trust your fair judgment.

I'd like to know a few extra things, though. Does the AI withdraw from battle often? Do its units run back and forth endlessly until they're exhausted. Last but not least, do you confirm that AI units who aren't set on FAW by default won't throw their javelins?

[Kraxis]

First off, thank you for this thread Kraxis, it's very informative and I trust your fair judgment.

I'd like to know a few extra things, though. Does the AI withdraw from battle often? Do its units run back and forth endlessly until they're exhausted. Last but not least, do you confirm that AI units who aren't set on FAW by default won't throw their javelins?

I have not experienced a single withdrawal yet, I mean a withdrawal without some form of combat.
Units do at times mill back and forth, but not so much in front of your units as going from their lines and back again if you position yourself close but not close enough. This happens mostly with rebels as you are often stronger than them. The unit will charge to get rid of that ranged unit, AI sees it has no chance and pulls it back, ranged unit is once again a priority, AI oncve again sees the futility... ect ect. That happens, but it seems the faction armies are less likely to do this.
Yes, no unit other than siege equipment, that is set to FAW off will fire at you. It has always been like that I think. At least I remember the few rebel Hastati of RTW never threw their pila at me. Hopefully this will be noticed.

Ok, a few questions and false information from me earlier:

RTW units have the new spear attribute as well, it just wasn't mentioned in the explaination for the file, meaning those that have it can resist cavalry charges to some degree. That is good.

Ranges and ammo for ranegs units are far more diverse than in RTW. Nothing can be said with certainty. Most horse archers have 40 arrows, but a few have only 30 (generally the better ones, or rather those that can fight in melee).

[Ldvs]

Yes, no unit other than siege equipment, that is set to FAW off will fire at you. It has always been like that I think. At least I remember the few rebel Hastati of RTW never threw their pila at me. Hopefully this will be noticed.

That's worrying because units with javelins in vanilla RTW do throw them before charging. Hopefully, it's not hard-codded and modders can fix this bug.

[Kraxis]

That's worrying because units with javelins in vanilla RTW do throw them before charging. Hopefully, it's not hard-codded and modders can fix this bug.

Hopefully it is not complete, as I said I only remember it on rebels, and most javelinarmed troops I face are Verteranii rebels.

In any case they should actually throw their weapons if we try to charge them or just cometoo close. Effectively, tunr on FAW for all AI units unless the AI can handle them.

[Garvanko]

Btw, the 'all-rush-the-gate-it-is-open-due-to-spies' feature/bug has been addressed. This should be a great relief to all.
Spies now kill the oil as well (best change to this). But when I had a Sassanid army attack me when they had a spy on the inside and the gates were opened (damn that bastard), I deployed to repel a rush at the gate. Being the usual suspective person that I am I took notice to some ladders and towers quite far away and posted some troops on the walls to be ready, just in case.
Turned out that was the most brilliant move that day. Two thirds of the Sassanid army rushed the gate, where I expected them to be boiled, not so. The rest took their ladders and towers and attacked far far far away from the gate. Boy... That was tough! My few reserves could only just handle it, and in one case it could not. I had to rush a unit of Lanciarii to the rescue before the enemy reached the plaza. Pleasant to see the AI act so sensible.

This scenario pretty much happened to me, however I am playing the Sassanid Empire. The ERE seiged and attacked me at different points around my recently captured city Sinope.

I won the battle, to my frustration , given I'd destroyed most of my buildings when seiged, thinking I was going to lose the city.

The odds had been 1:3 against. Sassanids are cool. But I was also impressed by the AI.

[jerby]

kraxis how is the phalanx behavior? is there a shieldwall? tell me all about phalanx units, behavior, AI-behavior with it..the box-forming..anything!

[Kraxis]

kraxis how is the phalanx behavior? is there a shieldwall? tell me all about phalanx units, behavior, AI-behavior with it..the box-forming..anything!

Sorry... I haven't played much with the old game. I did some tests to see if the AI could handle phalanxes better now, and it seems so, but that was only a single test once.
Puzz3D made some comparative tests to RTW and found the phalanxes are now superb against cavalry, even the top of the line such as Cataphracts.

[Kraxis]

From now on I will use this thread to put in all my interesting observations about the game. I hope others will add their own observations, especially if they include the old game.

Anyway, I found to my great pleasure that the AI does like to try to envelop you are the Huns (perhaps when it just has lots of cavalry?). I had a poor Hippo-toxotai get caught by a Hunnic army on its way back for retraining after a bloody campaign. This was the resulting Hunnic setup for the battle. Take note of the minimap. The light Horsemen (horse archers in large units) cover the flanks while the heavier forces push me towards the edge of the map.

They even began to close with me whenever I tried to break out, forcing me to stay in front of the central force. I felt like some poor animal being herded to the slaughter, and the result was thereafter, Huns: 19, Kraxis: 2

Later they tried the same thing with me and a force of reinforcements, but as it happened their two wings ended up in front of our armies, effectively elimininating their chances of concentrating their force on one army. But at least they had tried, and they damn nearly broke the reinforcements, killing my governor of the nearby settlement.

Another good improvement (some would argue against it) is that the AI now seems to use rearguards.
This shot is taken right after the Sassanid army has yelled a collective "Head for the hills!!!" But note that a single unit of spearmen are indeed advancing on me. Well it is perhaps not so obvious, but the nearest unit is actually advancing while the rest are fleeing head over heels.

After having given the others some head start they also turned and fled (and of course died trying).

I noticed similar behaviour in other battles that were clearly going in my favour, especially when I have lots of archers or horse archers, but this was the first time they fled before anyone routed, so it became very obvious.

[Cesare diBorja]

AI used rear-guard in Darthmod6.0/Darthformations8.0. BI is great. I have won seven battles and lost three. In one-on-one battles, a german(Allemani) chosen archer unit defeated a limiti unit, and then a comiti unit. It inflicted 50-80% casualties on both units. I am currently seeking to engage it again one-on-one with my better units. It is raiding my frontier(I am WRE). Battles are much better and much cleaner. Followed advice offered to defrag and then load up the game. I also dumped six other games and have plenty of back-up memory. Need a better video card(128mb egva 5200 model, slow, but optimised 160%). 1024mb RAM. Awesome, but, need more. But I have seen little in the way of the upsets experienced by Kraxis and others. Battles rolls on just fine. Still the beginning though. I am sure I will find something.........

Cheers

diBorgia

[Kraxis]

A small update to the campaign...

It is now well past 400, the Roman Empire is strong and stable. The Hunnic Horde has settled Campus Iazyges and doesn't seem to want to bother us again. The war with the WRE consists of a single of my fleets blockading Ravenna.

Intensity was settling down it seemed. And in the east the break came when I managed to defeat the Sassanid fieldarmy and not get ripped to pieces at the same time. The resulting siege of Ctesiphon was easily won (the only enemy force was a unit of Peasants). That seems to have broken the spine of the Sassanid Empire. They have tried again and again to besiege Kotais (that rebelled to me some 10 years earlier), but now it is winding down.
The very last battle saw me fighting for dear life, and the same for the Sassanid general, as in the end only his unit of Clibanarii Immortals were fighting. But they were fighting on the plaza, where they destroyed my last infantry (Lanciarii), melee cavalry and devastated my general (I had three men left he had 30). My horse archers had run out of ammo (those Clibanarii can withstand a hail of arrows).
I was desperate, those Clibanarii were ripping my remaining troops apart with their bows. I finally gave up and charged in my mercenary sarmatian archers... The fight was bloody but the result was satisfactory, I won.

The very same turn I had sent my most prominent general, governor of Hatra, to deal with a bunch of rebels. That he did well, but he couldn't return the same turn. The next turn he was gone, and so was the entire superb army I had sent with him, horse archers, eastern archers, plumbatarii and various cavalry... All highly experienced. The damn bugger had defected to the rebels!!! My most prominent general, victor of two heroic victories (on the map), now he was reduced to a simple rebelrouser. I was furois and about to send out the remaining units of Hatra's garrison but then I noticed the loyalty there, not good.

The next turn I was assembling an army to send west, finally settling the matter with the WRE. But I needed at least a few more turns to get the new general in place and collect troops from Dacia, Salona and Sirmium. But as fate would have it, the Huns were kicked out of Campus Iazyges by a revolt. I knew that was trouble, but to compound the matter the Burgundii, with their developing empire finally gave the Franks the big boot (which happened to be quite far east), and their four stacks entered the very same province as the Huns were leaving. They are now besieging Campus Iazyges and the massive raider force there. And finally the Burgundii also ripped the poor Lombardii a new one sending them packing too. Their six stacks are now diverting, some going for the Sarmatian city (I fear another horde is on its way there), while therest are on their way down towards Campus Iazyges, though some distance off still. The Huns are heading west, hopefully takign advantage of the WRE's weakness in terms of troops.

I think I will have to wait with my invasion of the WRE, those hordes are simply not good news on my western front. I don't think I have the troops to deal with them. GAH! At least I have begun training a few Comitatenses First Cohorts.

[Ldvs]

That's great. It seems, the hordes definitely are a crucial element for the challenge in BTW, by being both unpredictable and powerful.
By the way, your reports persuaded me to buy the game, Kraxis, and I guess I'm not alone in this case

[Pode]

By the way, your reports persuaded me to buy the game, Kraxis, and I guess I'm not alone in this case

Ditto. Thanks for giving up play time to report for us