Labour Conference

[Tribesman]

Have they turned into totallitarian thugs ?
An 82 year old party member is forcibly expelled from conference for calling Jack Straw a liar over Iraq (I guess the truth hurts) .
Then someone who objects to the ejection is also removed .
As the 82 year old is then held under anti terrorist legislation can anyone explain how calling a liar a liar has anything to do with terrorism ?

Silly old bugger , he should have stayed in Nazi Germany and got all his persecution over with decades ago instead of running off to a free country like Britain .

[Don Corleone]

Just out of curiosity, Tribesman, aren't you a citizen of ROI?

[Tribesman]

Yes , but that doen't mean that I cannot criticise other countries governments .
I would start more topics criticising my government , but ...
(a) I don't think there is enough room on this forum for quite that many posts .
(b) I think all of the other Irish posters would be of exactly the same opinion as far as our banana Republic goes , so it wouldn't create much debate .

[Meneldil]

Out of topic, but how is Ireland a banana Republic ?

[Don Corleone]

You misunderstand me. Of course you have a right to criticize how Britain's political parties run their show. As far as I know, the Backroom is a free enviornment and any citizen of one country can criticize the policies of any other. Lord knows, we Americans have plenty to say about the way other countries run their affairs (something I wish we could restrain ourselves on at times).

I didn't mean it that way at all. I was just trying to keep up on where you're from, as you seem to know more about politics in Britain than the ROI (or at least, we don't hear much from you about things at the Dail). I was wondering if you were an expat.

[Tribesman]

Out of topic, but how is Ireland a banana Republic ?
Meneldil ; because of the endemic corruption at all levels .
As one businessman put it , at one of the never ending yet completely unachieving tribunals into corruption , "the government make the Mafia look like a bunch of monks"
Bob Geldof wrote a very telling song about it in the late 70's , and is still very vocal on the subject , it's one of the reasons why he doesn't live here .

I didn't mean it that way at all. I was just trying to keep up on where you're from, as you seem to know more about politics in Britain than the ROI (or at least, we don't hear much from you about things at the Dail). I was wondering if you were an expat.
Well at work I read one Irish newspaper and two British ones , that is if the Irish one has even been delivered by the time its tea break .
The British TV news is on before and after the Irish TV news so I watch both .
I worked for many years in Britain , as did just about everyone of my age or older , and will probably work there again before I head to the States or Oz .

Anyway , I might have to start a thread about the Rossport 5 .
It might get a response , all the interesting topics are included "eminent domain , corruption , oil , big business , civil rights"

[Don Corleone]

It just seems to me that whenever I'm over visiting Ireland, there's a scandal of one sort or another. Last fall, when i was there for 2 weeks, they wouldn't shut up about the Aer Lingus privitization scandal. That's all I meant.

It seems to be a fascinating place in terms of internal political machinations.

[Adrian II]

Meneldil; because of the endemic corruption at all levels. As one businessman put it, at one of the never ending yet completely unachieving tribunals into corruption, "the government make the Mafia look like a bunch of monks".

So how does the ROI compare to the Labour Party? Or does Labour belong in the Fascism thread these days?

[Tribesman]

It just seems to me that whenever I'm over visiting Ireland, there's a scandal of one sort or another.
Yep its non-stop .
they wouldn't shut up about the Aer Lingus privitization scandal.
Don't get me started on that .
My father has (without notice) just had his contractual concessions removed with no compensation . His pension , which was supposed to be the same as any other government employee , has now been made practically worthless due to them using the pension funds for restructuring .
Still he is better off than my brother who has been asked to massively increase his personal contributions to the Aer Lingus pension if he is to have any hope of getting anything at all out of it .

So how does the ROI compare to the Labour Party? Or does Labour belong in the Fascism thread these days?
The British Labour are the new Tories , just slightly to the left of Thatcherites .
Irish Labour are still fairly OK , Rabbitte has moderated his stance somewhat since he moved over from the Workers Party .
And they still have Micheal D . One of the few politicians who seems to have escaped all of the corruption scandals . And one who is very vocal in supporting the Aer Lingus workers .
And the only one who actually knocks on my door by himself at election time and takes the time to listen . Instead of turning up with a bunch of morons or just sending out the morions to put a leaflet through the door .
Though you can see why the morons do it , my cousin went campaigning for a politician (whose party he doesn't even support) , he managed to get planning permission in an area where you cannot build , a grant to build , plus a very nice part time job as an instructor with a government agency .

[Meneldil]

It seems to be a fascinating place in terms of internal political machinations.

You never visited France, heh ? We are the true masters of political machinations of any kind. And I really mean it.

[Adrian II]

You never visited France, heh ? We are the true masters of political machinations of any kind. And I really mean it.

He is right, you know. You should study the way in which Mitterrand secured the leadership of the Socialist Party in 1971 - without even being a member!

[Tribesman]

Oh well , a full and uneqivocal apology from the Party chairman .
But no explaination of the use of the Anti-terrorist legislation to silence dissent within the party .
Of course , no one has to worry about the legislation if they are not terrorists

[_Martyr_]

I would start more topics criticising my government , but ...
(a) I don't think there is enough room on this forum for quite that many posts .
(b) I think all of the other Irish posters would be of exactly the same opinion as far as our banana Republic goes , so it wouldn't create much debate .

Nail on the head!

Im reading a book at the moment called Haughey's Millions. It meticulously details CJ's finances over the years, its a pretty interesting read I have to say. The financial antics that man got up to are something else, his curropt legacy is alive and well in a certain government party today, even up to the highest levels. As CJ once said "Bertie is the cutest hure of them all!"

[Adrian II]

Oh well , a full and uneqivocal apology from the Party chairman .
But no explaination of the use of the Anti-terrorist legislation to silence dissent within the party .
Of course , no one has to worry about the legislation if they are not terrorists

Very disturbing indeed. There is a very good article (well, at least I find it pretty impressive) about the affair on the BBC web site. It addresses all sorts of related issues: the Labour control freakery, stupid new anti-terror measures, freedom of speech being threatened by upcoming laws. One passage in particular says a lot about the political culture in our so-called 'age of communication', which is really an 'age of information' in which messages are mainly sent from the top down and not the other way round.

Previous leaders of all parties once believed dealing with hecklers was all part of the job and having the skill to do so with some panache was seen as a distinct personal plus. No one liked it, but all accepted it was one of the downsides of free speech.

Those days are long gone and everything is now about control and eliminating every opportunity for the rogue heckler or unscripted and unvetted member of the public getting through to the leader.

This from a broadcasting corporation that is under constant fire from Blair's control freaks as well. I must confess that I never liked Tony Blair in the first place and I am glad that His Glibness hat shot himself royally in the foot by having his minions manhandle a Jewish escapee from the nazis. I also appreciate that Mr Wolfgang, far from being a post-modern whiner, shrugs off his own five minute fame and tells us where it is really at:

Mr Wolfgang, being welcomed back into the conference by apologetic Labour bosses, has described his treatment as trivial compared to the big "mistakes" of invading Iraq or holding nuclear weapons. "You cannot stifle debate by hiring heavies. A party has got to be open to the world. The Labour party must get back to its culture of being open to argument. Let's hope this is a step on the way back," he said.

[rasoforos]

You gotta watch these 80-yr olds! They are all terrorists...everytime I take the tube and I see a granny holding a shoping bag I change car. They could be carrying bombs you know...

I am putting the stupid anti-terrorist law aside, and the overreacting party thugs aside. Kicking an 80 yr old man out and letting him out is not something that they would do again if they could turn back time. Not because they are good and kind hearted but because it hurt the image.

The big issue here is that only one person had the balls to shout 'nonsence'. Everyone else in the labour party is cowering behind that madman of a PM who will do anything to impress his american boyfriend. Noone else dares to object to the fact that labour has betrayed all of its ideals?

[Adrian II]

The big issue here is that only one person had the balls to shout 'nonsence'. Everyone else in the labour party is cowering behind that madman of a PM who will do anything to impress his american boyfriend. Noone else dares to object to the fact that labour has betrayed all of its ideals?

We have the same brand of pompous post-Socialist control freaks here. No new ideas, just new pr based on fake slogans that have nothing to do with socialism whatsoever. Blair had a good one the other day: 'we must stand up for the weak and poor'.

[rant]
Excuse me? Socialism was never about charity, Mr Blair, unless we are talking of your own sentimental Fabian version. It used to be about social justice and a less polarised economy in which people would enjoy certain freedoms and be appreciated for their contribution to society instead of their (inherited) position in it. A society in which the poor would be enabled to stand up for themselves instead of having to wait for Blairite hand-outs, if I am not very much mistaken. It's Socialism, not Socialbenifitism, you insufferable excuse for a leader!

[/rant]

Tea, anyone?

[Geoffrey S]

This whole New Labour practically reeks of the Conservative party to me. It's taken over a lot of policies that were traditionally Conservative, basically just using policies for the sake of gaining votes. Not that this is rare in politics, it's simply a lot more obvious than what would usually be the case. It certainly lost any element of socialism somewhere along the line; where do all these new laws restricting public freedom fit into socialism.

[Tribesman]

Im reading a book at the moment called Haughey's Millions.
Would that be about his full and final dislosure of all the illegal money he got , or his second full and final dislocure , or the third ...fourth ...when is he back in front of the tribunal so we can have another full and final disclosure ?

As CJ once said "Bertie is the cutest hure of them all!"
That wouldn't be the same Bertie who signed dozens of blank government checks for Charlie without ever even asking what they were for . When the whole reason he was suposed to countersign any of the checks was ensure they were not misused . Yeah cute whore alright .
But hey what about Mcdowell shouting his head off at the media this week for exposing his little deal to pay 30 million for land valued at 6 million , but it is really still a bargain as he had another friend that was going to ask for even more money .
Actually thats the same Mcdowell who was shouting the odds to Sinn Fien over the Northern Bank raid .
Yet when the gardai actually find someone with a very big bundle of the Northern Bank notes , it turns out to be his friend who just happens to be a financier for his party .

[Marcellus]

This incident was absolutely appaling. One man expressed his views on one of the most important issues that could have been discussed at the conference, and he is ejected and then detained under anti-terror laws. All at a time when the PM is saying how Britain must help spread democracy and freedom of speech around the world. But at least the PM apologised. Virtually every major figure in the Labour Party did, in fact, something that was very good to watch.

[Tribesman]

But at least the PM apologised. Virtually every major figure in the Labour Party did, in fact, something that was very good to watch.

They are learning from their mistakes .
It looks very bad if you forcibly eject your party delegates in front of the TV cameras .
So next year they will ban TV cameras .

[InsaneApache]

I have been warning peeps about Bliar for sometime now. The man really hasn't got a democratic bone in his body, a dangerous demagogue.

“The program of the Two Minutes Hate varied from day to day, but there was none in which Bliar was not the principal figure. He was the primal traitor, the earliest defiler of the Party’s purity. All subsequent crimes against the Party, all treacheries, acts of sabotage, heresies, deviations, sprang directly out of his teaching”

With apologies to Mr. Eric (No relation) Blair

[Marcellus]

But at least the PM apologised. Virtually every major figure in the Labour Party did, in fact, something that was very good to watch.

They are learning from their mistakes .
It looks very bad if you forcibly eject your party delegates in front of the TV cameras .
So next year they will ban TV cameras .

[ShadesPanther]

The Blair goes on Tv to try to get the image back. He fails badly at it.

It is disgusting that they did it to an 80 year old, it would still be just as bad if he was young but still.

[King Henry V]

I wonder where that IRA is when you really need them.... Blair is realy a Thatcherite with a sugary coating of socialism on the outside.

[InsaneApache]

Blair is realy a Thatcherite with a sugary coating of socialism on the outside.

Sorry, this man has got nothing in common with Maggie or any of her ideals. This man doesn't have any cast-iron principles. The only thing this man has in common with Baroness Thatcher, is that the electorate were idiotic enough to let him slip under the wire and win another majority in Parliament, for the third year running. Thatcher was about increasing personal liberty, this man will take any opportunity to curtail them. Another thing, we have had more wars under this man, then we had in 20 years of the Tories. A true social/fascist if ever there was one.